Uniform query.

[kerryboo]

I do not know which country the soldiers in this photo are from. Some look very French, but others, including a few Germans, do not. Perhaps Belgian? They all appear very relaxed and, although a couple of white armbands can be seen, they do not appear to be prisoners. Perhaps someone can identify the uniforms and the occasion?
Many thanks,
Kerry.

[stefke_smle]

third from left is Belgian, chasseurs ardennais (boar head insignia on the beret)

others mostly French I think, the one with cross on the cap could be Belgian too.

[Otmills]

=> Third from left = Belgian Major Infantry (crown on visor cap)

=> Third from right = Belgian Captain or senior Captain Chasseur Ardennais

=> Others = French & German.

Kind regards,

Nick

[kerryboo]

stefke_smle and Nick,
Thank you both, I am sorry to have taken so long stefke_smle!
All the best,
Kerry.

[BergführerKiser]

Very interesting photo. The German officer (2nd from the right) is a Gebirgsjäger wearing an Austrian tunic. Must be the end of hostilities after the Battle of France.

Horrido!

Patrick

[pauke]

Based on all the contented faces and the Geb. officer's lack of combat awards I would guess it is actually just pre-war. They're simply too happy to have just stopped fighting each other IMO.

[chrischa]

Hello Pauke.

I too thought pre war but the French / Belgian troops in the background all seem to be unarmed and without equipment. The German soldier in the helmet looks to have a rifle slung.

It could be an area where little fighting took place and so perhaps a more freindly atmosphere....?

Also, pre war German officers wore a cross belt until the start of the war. Obviously tuis is not a hard and fast rule so it doesn’t prove anything just adds to the clues.

[kerryboo]

Hi pauke and chrischa,
Thank you both for the input, the mystery deepens!
Regards,
Kerry.

[ZacharyB]

I have some photos in my archive that were taken immediately after the cessation of hostilities in the West that show very friendly and comradely situations between Germans and Frenchmen.

As others have noted here, most of the people in these photos are officers. The same is true in the images that I have. It seems that at least among the officer corps of the opposing forces there was room for gentlemanly behavior after the fighting closed.

There are many factors that account for this, some traditional and some more situational, but I would point out one that is often overlooked in discussions of the Western Front in 1940. All sides expected renewed hostilities to devolve into the miserable sort of static warfare that marked The Great War. On the French side, this attitude comes across in the writings of historians such as Marc Bloch. And for the Germans, despite the post-war fascination with Panzers and Blitzkrieg, John Mosier makes a very compelling case in his work that the Germans more or less stumbled into a stunning and unexpected victory. I won't belabor the point, but he notes that prior to 1940, the German army allocated more of its steel resources to the production of barbed wire than to Panzers. The implications and expectations associated with putting so much emphasis on barbed wire are obvious.

So, with the rapid end of the war in the West (neither side having suffered heavily) there was a sense of almost euphoric relief even among the vanquished. In that case, I can see a justification for some of these officers to be willing to pose with smiling faces because they have survived so cheaply when they expected to go through the horror of the trenches all over again.

I would wager that the photo posted here--and thank you for posting it as it has provided interesting material for discussion--is taken in the last days or just after the end of the French Campaign in 1940 and depicts victorious German officers and men posing with captured Allied officers. Of course, these are just my thoughts and opinions based on what I have seen and read over the years. I am always eager to hear what others think and their reasoning.

Kind Regards,

Z

P.S. I assume that you have turned the photo over and checked for a caption and/or date?

[Archi]

Hello !

First, thanks for sharing this very interesting photo and also for the very interesting discussion !

As I found this very stunning too, I would like to share some thoughts, to encourage further discussion :
- My very first impression was very similar to that of pauke :"Too relaxed, to be made during the war"
(although I appreciate the points made by the others, especially by ZacharyB).

John Mosier makes a very compelling case in his work that the Germans more or less stumbled into a stunning and unexpected victory.

(You might be interested to read : "The Blitzkrieg Legend" by Karl-Heinz Frieser, which states something very similar)

- The second thing I would like to mention :
On the very left, on the very right (and perhaps also on the construction in the middle), it seems that
there are "spectators", climbing to a higher point, to see more of an "event" ?!
(why would you do this, if this is after a capitulation/seizing fire) ?
Could it perhaps be some riding/horses event, pre war ?
(On the other hand, I do not know if a German soldier with a Stahlhelm would show up, during such
a pre war competition in France ?!).

Some points, that could help to clarify, where and when the photo was taken :
- The medal bar of the German officer
- There seems to be a street sign on the left building, starting with "PLACE ..." ?!
- As Belgium capitulated on 28.5.40, were there POW camps, where larger numbers of French
and Belgium POWs would be held together ? (Or to put it in another way : Would the Belgian Officers
still look so relaxed, when they were held POWs for already 3-4 weeks ? To me, the relaxed atmosphere
seems to coming from an event, that had just happened shortly before.)

- If we see POWs, would we expect to see a weapon with the German officer (or is it just covered) ?

- Finally, I would be interested, if there are other photos like this, if it is taken shortly after the armistice,
perhaps taken in POW camps. That might be interesting as well.

I would like to continue this thread, as it is very unusual and interesting !

Best regards,

Archi

[kerryboo]

Hello all,
Thank you all for continuing this interesting discourse.
I have a couple of observations. The first is the sentry box in the near foreground. The other is that the soldiers behind the very smartly dressed officers are not particularly well turned out, if it was an official event I would expect to see some sense of uniformity. Open tunics and lack of any belts/equipment in the presence of their officers suggests to me that they no longer consider themselves under command and subject to normal discipline.
These are purely my musings, quite possibly wide of the mark, but, again, another factor or two to add to the intrigue.
Thanks once again,
Kerry.
ps, sadly nothing on the reverse.
K.

[ZacharyB]

...(although I appreciate the points made by the others, especially by ZacharyB).

(You might be interested to read : "The Blitzkrieg Legend" by Karl-Heinz Frieser, which states something very similar)...

Archi,

Greetings mate, I see that we share some reading interests. I am very familiar with Colonel Frieser's book and found it to be infinitely fascinating, cogently reasoned, and supremely accessible. His volume, along with some of Dr. Mosier's titles, is on a short list of reading material that I recommend to students who express a strong interest in learning more about the war in the West.

Now, as to this photo, you make some interesting points. I can see an argument for the men climbing on either side to view an event.

However this is clearly a posed shot and not a spontaneous snap of the cameraman's shutter. I'd suggest that perhaps we see the handiwork of a propaganda ministry photographer. We all know that war photographers scoured the rear areas looking for great photos for army and party publications. And what happens when an "important" official photo is about to be taken? Some people inevitably careen, crane, and climb in an effort to get into the shot so that later on when the image is printed in the paper, they can say "See Mum! There I am!"

I'd like to submit this image from my archive. Clearly this is a POW setting. But notice that the French officers are still outfitted in their kits and they are tidy in appearance. And note similarities in the range of expressions between the officers in this image and the one posted at the start of this thread. We have some who appear to be cracking smiles or at least smirking while others are more pensive toward frowning. And note also the officer who is raising his hand in salute. I show this image only to illustrate that not every interaction between captor and captive was fraught with external tension and hostility visible to the cameraman.

Regards,

Z

[chrischa]

As mentioned, two allied officers on the left have white armbands. To indicate surrender?

The armbands are different sizes so not a produced armband for some official reason like we'd see mock battle judges wear.

[Archi]

Hello !

I think Kerryboo and ZacharyB made some good points, that convinced me that my "event idea" was wrong.
As kerryboo mentioned, the soldiers should be dressed different and much more orderly.
I am also with the explanation by ZacharyB, of some people trying to get into an important picture.
Makes much more sense, considering the whole context !
(and thanks for sharing that nice additional picture, which shows a related scenario).
And I think, that avoiding the horrors of trench warfare (and having survived), is also a good point
for explaining the somehow relaxed atmosphere (at least it is over now).

I would still be interested to learn, at what time this was probably taken and whether there are similar photos.
(Perhaps also with Allied soldiers wearing similar armbands that Chrischa mentioned ?!).

Most pictures I have seen, show columns of French soldiers, walking into captivity, but I haven't seen
something similar to what was shown by Kerryboo.
Assuming, that the German side would be very interested to show defeated and captured French soldiers,
there should be more photos of this types around ?!

Thanks and best regards,

Archi

[byterock]

Definalty a per-war picture most likely some sort of milatary sporting event.

If can see your typical 'poilu' in the backgound.

Anything post 43 the french soilder wold be wearing US gear.