Show your TDB related documents

[Angel Farré]

Citations for this medal are rarely seen, myself never have one in my collection so I want to see yours, also those other documents related to the award of thismedal.

First here we have the confirmation of the award to an NCO, as he was awarded earlier the IAB he was also credited with a close combat day. He received the EK II some days after the day he destroyed the tank so maybe an award for this action.

Angel

[Angel Farré]

Here we have another to an EM as this time he was credited with an assault day counting to his award of the IAB, he also received the EK II in the comming days.

Angel

[Lionel H.]

Hi Angel !

A good Idea.... but showing this Kind of Documents alone makes no Sense in my Opinion. Why ?? Because this Kind of document is one of the most produced by the Fakers..... As you had no formal Awards documents, most of those I know and sure they are original were made on "free" Paper, presented like award documents, or MOSTLY extracts of bataillon Orders WITH A REFERENCE. You find also attestations (in German "Bescheinigung"), this "Bescheinigung" needs no references. It is VERY COMPLICATED, but the german Language has the great advantage to be very precise, and the german military organisation has also clear rules....

Don't be offended, it can happen to even an Advanced Collector as you are, but for me, both documents you show are very doubtful. I have the strange sensation they have been produced by the same Person, which would be impossible by Originals, because both units have nio common points.... The first reasons which makes me are very simple, a feeling "at first Glance"
1) Both Stamps seems to me to be identical. Probably an original Stamp, but of course the FpNr. is not matching with the evocated units, and of course in both cases not readable.... But strangely, a good observation reveals IMO that both three first numbers are "389.."
2) the Signatures are both stinking... Giving Elements is complicated in English.... but I trust signature experts to confirm both are not period made.
3) On the second Doc, I fell from my chair when I read "gez. Reimers Oberst u. Abt.Chef". An Oberst (colonel) commanding a Panzerjäger-Abt. ??? NO WAY. It is a too high Rank for that !! In Mai 42 the Pz.Jäg.Abt.10 was commanded by Major Herrnleben. In mai 43 by Major Kersten. In the Dörfler Book called "Die Geschichte der 10.Inf.Div.", a first Glance reveals NO "Oberst Reimers"..... I can be mistaken, I will check this Evening. But in the Rangliste des deutschen Heeres 1944-45, the Only "Reimers" was a Major promoted on Nov.1st 1943. The only "Reimers with German Cross" was a captain of the 77.I.D. on July.21st 1944. No KC Holder called "Reimers", no "Ehrenblatt-Holder" called Reimers. An Oberst in 1944 with less is possible, but not common.... The Mention "Gef-Std" on the same document is strange too.... it was an "Abt.-Gef.Std."....

My Wife is now crying for Dinner..... but I will spend some more time this Evening to confirm my bad Feelings about both Documents. Lionel.

[Simon O.]

I have to say i'm in agreement with Lionel, another point on the second document is the use of the term 'abteilung chef'

[Lionel H.]

Very exact Simon ! I have made some further quick Researches. As I told before, a Major was traditionally leading a Panzer-Jäger-Abt. But as the War was getting on, lowest rangs appeared.
Then, at the end of Dec.1943, the Pz.Jäg.Abt.10 (mot.) was commanded by HPTM Walther Heim (KC Dec.5th.43)
He was then replaced (date unknow) by HPTM Manfred Schwarz (KC 1942, German Cross Oct.2nd.43). Page 324 from Divisional History it is written "1944 : Bericht des Hptm. Schwarz, des letzten Kommandeur der Pz.Jäg.Abt.10 über den Einsatz der Abteilung (ohne 3.Komp.) bis Kriegsende 1945)."

I am afraid this Colonel Reimers only existed in the Faker's Imagination.

[Tom B]

Hi Angel !

A good Idea.... but showing this Kind of Documents alone makes no Sense in my Opinion. Why ?? Because this Kind of document is one of the most produced by the Fakers..... As you had no formal Awards documents, most of those I know and sure they are original were made on "free" Paper, presented like award documents, or MOSTLY extracts of bataillon Orders WITH A REFERENCE. You find also attestations (in German "Bescheinigung"), this "Bescheinigung" needs no references. It is VERY COMPLICATED, but the german Language has the great advantage to be very precise, and the german military organisation has also clear rules....

Don't be offended, it can happen to even an Advanced Collector as you are, but for me, both documents you show are very doubtful. I have the strange sensation they have been produced by the same Person, which would be impossible by Originals, because both units have nio common points.... The first reasons which makes me are very simple, a feeling "at first Glance"
1) Both Stamps seems to me to be identical. Probably an original Stamp, but of course the FpNr. is not matching with the evocated units, and of course in both cases not readable.... But strangely, a good observation reveals IMO that both three first numbers are "389.."
2) the Signatures are both stinking... Giving Elements is complicated in English.... but I trust signature experts to confirm both are not period made.
3) On the second Doc, I fell from my chair when I read "gez. Reimers Oberst u. Abt.Chef". An Oberst (colonel) commanding a Panzerjäger-Abt. ??? NO WAY. It is a too high Rank for that !! In Mai 42 the Pz.Jäg.Abt.10 was commanded by Major Herrnleben. In mai 43 by Major Kersten. In the Dörfler Book called "Die Geschichte der 10.Inf.Div.", a first Glance reveals NO "Oberst Reimers"..... I can be mistaken, I will check this Evening. But in the Rangliste des deutschen Heeres 1944-45, the Only "Reimers" was a Major promoted on Nov.1st 1943. The only "Reimers with German Cross" was a captain of the 77.I.D. on July.21st 1944. No KC Holder called "Reimers", no "Ehrenblatt-Holder" called Reimers. An Oberst in 1944 with less is possible, but not common.... The Mention "Gef-Std" on the same document is strange too.... it was an "Abt.-Gef.Std."....

My Wife is now crying for Dinner..... but I will spend some more time this Evening to confirm my bad Feelings about both Documents. Lionel.

I agree with all you have said. IMO fakes

[Lionel H.]

Concerning the other Document from G.R.531, I doubt there is a Regimental or divisional History of the 383.I.D., but before making Researches about the commandeur of this Unit, some points :

1) The Abbreviation "Oberst u.Reg.Kommandeur"...... is not correct in German I have taken one of my ordner, and found 7 Awards Documents signed by an "Oberst und Regiments-Kommandeur".
If you want to reduce it, they are two common Ways :
- "Oberst u.Rgts.Kdr."
- "Oberst u.Rgt.Kdr."
I found the first 4 time, and the second 3 time. In these cases "Rgts" or "Rgt" are both grammaticaly correct. "Reg." is the common Abbreviation for "Regierung", and not for "Regiment".
And further... why reducing "Regiment" and not "Kommandeur" ??

2) "Betr." means "Betreff", then "Subject"..... The Subject, as it is written, is the Attribution of a TDB.... The last § with "Lob" (Compliments) has NOTHING to do here !! If the Oberst would have express his gratitude to this Sergeant, a formal Letter would have been written. I can not say, that is absolutely impossible..... but that is not matching the usual german mentality § Way of processing !! A "Verleihung" is something official, ONLY FACTS, and can not contain other subjective Elements !!

[Angel Farré]

Both are part of groups, that does not make them good of course and I prefer to hear opinions from fellow collectors that syart arguing.

They wer purchased several years ago in Germany, i try to dig in the forum and post here the links, the NCO has the Wehrpas, that I can not purchase. If bad I hope only bad this papers, at least I will have the other documents.

Angel

[Lionel H.]

That is the Point Angel. Adding a TDB to a common and original Group makes a big jump to the price. I guess the rest of the Group(s) is/are original !!

[HouweTrouwe]

Mine

[Angel Farré]

Here the links so we can discuss everything and so me and all in this forum can learn from my mistakes and avoid making similar ones.

Angel

NCO one http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=398818

EM one http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=398003

[Lionel H.]

Thank you Angel. I happened to almost all of us to be abused by Fakers. Not sure that Kassel is the best Place to find TDB Groups.... The rest of the Papers seems OK, even if it is the first time I see a BWB Award doc signed with a Stamp by a General.... It needs more Research for this one.... but i will focuse on this Fakes TDB Awards Documents....
I have found the "CHERRY ON THE CAKE"..... In the database I am building for 2 Years about Tankkillers..... I found this document, that I already placed in a file called "Dubious documents".... AND LOOK !! SAME STAMP..... EXACTLY THE SAME "Construction" with all details about the Kill !! And a strange "childy" Signature !! I do not know who is the current Owner of this Group, but I guess he will have a bad night, and I apologize for that.... This "Grünlich" Group was sold here on the WAF for one Year or a bit more.... They are probably some other Group this Way on the Market....
If I were you Angel, I would try to get my money bad, and, if this Sir do not accept.... feel free to put his Name on this Thread !! STOP THE FAKERS !! </P>

[Angel Farré]

Well now we have another confirmation of the bogus of this documents so we can avoid them and his brothers.

Both groups were purchased some years ago and I must admit I make the mistake of not fully research them, now I have learnt the lesson and will keep my eyes open.

Damm now I need to look for one original group to complete my collection, still looking for a TDB citation.

Thanks for all

Angel

[Lionel H.]

Without your Post Angel I would not have made a relation between these Fakes. Thanks for that !! The one shown by Houwe Trouwe is OK. Here is another Version. These "Bataillons-Befehle" are the most "common" encountered types. A lot of variation are existing. The interessant Point on this one is the mention on the bottom left "Gilt als Besitzurkunde" ("to be considered as Award Document) !!

[Lionel H.]

And before going to bed, the most fabulous I have ever seen. It is unfortunately not in my Collection.... I met this Knight Cross Bearer after he already gave away his awards Documents.... I still dreaming about it.... Excuse my scan, it's made on an old Photocopy.... More seriously, I can not imagine the division created this document for only one Guy.... </P>