Panther photo...destruction Analysis required!

[bratwurstdimsum]

Hi there,

I have a theory on this photo, and it needs testing with people who are better informed than me! The person I bought it off says it is a picture of a 9.SS-Panzer-Division "Hohenstaufen" Panther in Normandy, although I have no way to verify this (the unit number is too faint to read). There are shell strikes on the turret with one that is still intact, half penetrated into the turret! More telling is the gigantic hole in the side of the Tank.

Could this have been:

1) An airstrike aftermath with some target practice later on? (seems like way too many hits on the same side of the turret to be believeable!
2) An ambush with a hit in the side magazines?

Also, are these guys souvineer hunters? They don't look like they just attacked the tank, more like some blokes on shore leave or something

[Chris Boonzaier]

Tank also looks to be stripped for the range. I would guess target practise.

[W Petz]

I have two copies of the same exact photo produce in quantity by the US Army. The photos I have were found in a GI's photo album.

It's my opinion that they are an US Army Air Force assessment team sent out to verify and claim Air to Ground battle damage. I've been told the Air Corps did this and claimed alot more that they actually destroyed. Bill

[Greg]

I have two copies of the same exact photo produce in quantity by the US Army. The photos I have were found in a GI's photo album.

It's my opinion that they are an US Army Air Force assessment team sent out to verify and claim Air to Ground battle damage. I've been told the Air Corps did this and claimed alot more that they actually destroyed. Bill

I would agree with Bill, though the center man might be a tanker. I would hazard a guess that most of the holes/impacts on the turret side are from US tankers taking pot shots at the Panther after it was knocked out, just to see what they could do. Looks like a 75mm AP shot imbedded in the turret. Taking pot shots after the battle just to "see if they could shoot through those big German tanks" seems to have happened a lot, and as a tanker, I can't blame them!

This is Tiger II number 213 of schwere SS-PanzerAbteilung 501 as it sits now at the Museum in La Gleize, Belgium. It was knocked out by Shermans of US 3rd Armored Division on 22 Dec 44. Some of the shot marks may be from that battle, but the 75mm shot imbedded in the glacis joint is almost certainly from the tankers firing at it from close range when they entered La Gleize after KG Peiper broke out.

Regards,
Greg

[Don D.]

Looks to me like the tank was hit and the crew probly bailed out. The allied tank(s) kept firing until they set off the main gun ammunition. You can see the results of an internal explosion. Had an aircraft hit this tank with a bomb you would see a lot more damage. I wouldn't rule out passing armored units taking a shot or two at it either. I'd want to see what my main gun was going to do to the enemy prior to an actual engagement too.
Don

[Greg]

82d Airborne paratroopers also got into the act of testing out their antitank weapons against the mighty Tigers. They found a Tiger in an alley in La Gleize that made a mighty handy shooting range, and tried out their bazookas on it. By looking you'd think this tank was in an awful battle, but in reality it was simply abandoned when KG Peiper withdrew from La Gleize!


(photo from December 1944 Museum, La Gleize)

Greg

[W Petz]

Sorry..I didn't say the Air Corps knocked it out. I only said in my opinion it may be an USAAF assessment team!! My Dad was an Infantryman in WW2 but he managed to get ahold of a Tanker Jacket in the War..it was a prized item just like a leather flyers jacket for those in the Airborne!! Those guys just don't look like Tankers to me.

I also remember reading about GI's practicing with Panzerschrecks and Panzerfausts collected up off the battle area plus tankers shooting off a few rounds to make sure the Panzer in question was dead. By the way P51 Mustangs were also fitted with rockets and not just bombs. A rocket of course would do less damage than a 250 or 500 pound bomb....such as blow a hole in the side like we see on this Panther!! Bill

[Gary Cain]

Definately looks like a internal explosion took it out. It was SOP for U.S. tankers to put a round in a german tank as they were passing by...just to make sure it was dead don't you know!



Gary

Sorry..I didn't say the Air Corps knocked it out. I only said in my opinion it may be an USAAF assessment team!! My Dad was an Infantryman in WW2 but he managed to get ahold of a Tanker Jacket in the War..it was a prized item just like a leather flyers jacket for those in the Airborne!! Those guys just don't look like Tankers to me.

I also remember reading about GI's practicing with Panzerschrecks and Panzerfausts collected up off the battle area plus tankers shooting off a few rounds to make sure the Panzer in question was dead. By the way P51 Mustangs were also fitted with rockets and not just bombs. A rocket of course would do less damage than a 250 or 500 pound bomb....such as blow a hole in the side like we see on this Panther!! Bill

[W Petz]

Hi Gary,

I agree...read my second paragraph!! I state exactly that along with a few other possibilities. Bill

[bratwurstdimsum]

Thanks for all the opinions guys, I didn't think about the assessment team concept at all, I thought the guy in the center was an engineer but it did not progress further than that. I am disappointed a little that there are duplicates though, esp the price I paid! It even has an ink caption on the reverse and "Cpt Striker" signed below the caption. (even though I can't verify that it wasn't written post war!). Did GI's (like the germans) purchase "stock" photos to send home?

[Simon O.]

Look at the location. Wherever this photo was taken it's not summer. I'm no expert on the flora of Normandy but pine trees and what seems to be silver birch doesn't seem typical Normandy to me.

[bratwurstdimsum]

Look at the location. Wherever this photo was taken it's not summer. I'm no expert on the flora of Normandy but pine trees and what seems to be silver birch doesn't seem typical Normandy to me.

Well spotted with the trees Simon, but why then are the GI's in summer uniform?

[Gary Cain]

Hey Bill,

Absolutely! I was merely reinforcing your earlier comment.

Gary

Hi Gary,

I agree...read my second paragraph!! I state exactly that along with a few other possibilities. Bill

[bratwurstdimsum]

perhaps its me being vain but photos in books are not proof of fakery, certainly duplicates are commonplace in ww2 photos, my opinion is if they were copied during wartime it should still be considered genuine. A lot of WW2 German photos were copied for soldiers to buy as most could not afford cameras. Perhaps it was the same for Allied soldiers as well or this could be a press photo.

Please do request that info for me...perhaps the author of the book has better access to info than us!

Some info on the photo, The paper is velox paper has a blue number "731" struck on the top left.

I have also seen this photo before in Tank books. Actually a friend of mine whom collects 2nd hand WW2 Whermacht & SS books has this photo.

My Guess is that it has been copied onto photographic paper and signed for sale.

If I can get hold of my mate in New Zealand I will ask him to scan the photo and I will send it to you so you can see it for your own eyes, as far as I can remember it has a discription of the event for the photo shoot as well.

[W Petz]

My guess is just lke the Germans who had War photographers the same applies to the US Army side which ties into my opinon about assessment teams. They had a photographer with them and most likely photographs were made available to GI's for purchase. Another photo comes to mind and that I have several of is the Paris Panther. I believe the photos were made available when the war ended or was winding down. As previously stated I found these photos in a WW2 GI photo Album. These are not current day reprints (you can view these photos on a thread I had started in the photo forum titled "A view through the eyes of GI's - Knocked out German Armor"). Bill