Help needed with 2 photo albums Legion Condor & Russia High Ranking Officer Stukas

[hornetsfan]

Hello , seeking assistance with 2 photo albums which I have been offered .I have many original WW2 albums , but these are somewhat different and I would really appreciate some help ...my first thoughts were that they were too good to be true . But now I have handled them . My feelings have changed .
I was contacted cold about the albums , an old chap saying that they were "acquired " by his father in law who was a tank commander in the British army during WW2 ..so fresh to the market .
First album covers mainly legion Condor photos ...the Second album mostly Russia 1941 . There is a strong Stuka content , lots of photos showing damaged caused by bombing , stuka attacks etc ...and many senior officers including relaxed photos of FM Kesselring , Gen.Obst.Hoth , Huhnersdorf , Dinort , Maj.Schellmann , Gen. Obst.Busch . One officer , perhaps the original owner is seen in both albums ..he is very well decorated , pictured in many photos but not named .
Many of the Russian photos relate to Witebsk ..loads of knocked out tanks , including interesting photos taken from the air . There are many photos of Jews taken at Witebsk ..there are also photos taken Novgorod_ Leningrad .
I will add photos to aid identification .
....I do not seem to be able to add photos ..link to photos here ...first 2 are possibly the original owner . The cropped photo of the Stuka relates to time in Russia . http://www.throughtheireyes2.co.uk/Forum-pics.html
Many thanks
Jim

[Ian Jewison]

Jim,

That appears to be Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram...von_Richthofen

/Ian

[hornetsfan]

It does ...I think I'm going to throw caution to the wind and buy the albums !

[hornetsfan]

Can anyone identify unit from Stuka photo ?
I realise it's highly unlikely , but how do I go about investigating if these 2 albums actually belonged to Von Richthofen ?
Many thanks
Jim

[Ian Jewison]

I Gruppe, Sturzkampfgeschwader 2

/Ian

[hornetsfan]

Thanks Ian ..that's helpful .
There must be over 350 photos in total in the 2 albums . In the album which relates to legion Condor there are several with Hitler and leading Nazis . plus top Brass military including Goring , keitel, Raeder and Sperrle ..it would appear that Von Richthofen is also in these photos .
The Russian album does have a fair number of aerial photos showing the attacks and results of attacks made by Stukas on Russian tanks , Bridges and towns etc ..some have writing on as on the ones I have added to the web page ( there are also some much better aerial photos within the album ) . I assume these are similar to the RAF Aerial photos with which I'm more familiar ?
There is a photo of Stalins son as a prisoner of war ..I have not been able to find this particular image on the web , although I'm aware of the others .

[hornetsfan]

Up late last night , in my limited way trying to research the albums .
Perhaps it's merely wishful thinking , but I'm growing more convinced that the albums once belonged to Richthofen .
Having taken a closer look , he is pictured in many of the photos ..in 2 informal photos ,at what appears to be party or military "gathering " there is a caption in pencil " Ellen" ..his youngest child was called Ellen ..age and date fits .
I'm assuming if these albums can be considered original / authentic to the man , they are going to be worth big money .
I'm not sure how to proceed , so I would really appreciate the advice and thoughts of the serious collectors / members who I know visit this site .
If anyone with knowledge wants to view the albums in person, then I'm potentially happy with that ...or alternatively , I could just put the lot on DVD for all to view .
But would this wreck the value of the original albums ? I'm happy to share , but not in a position to give everything away for free . A fair number of those 'orrible ebay Russian archive fakes came from my photos ..Fallschirmjager and U-boat images some taken from this very forum site .
many thanks
Jim

[jmark]

Hi Jim,

Sounds like you have some interesting albums on your hands. I would be astounded if the albums belonged to von Richthofen, but I suspect that it is not likely. I have a set of albums to a member of Sturzkampfgeschwader 2 and there are quite a few photos of Richthofen. Luftwaffe men loved having photos of him in their albums.

Also, Luftwaffe squadrons were well equipped with photographic equipment and darkrooms, even in the field, and printed numerous photos for their members. If you can, check the backs of the photos. Are there any stamps from civilian photo shops? Are the edges "crinkle cut" or straight? The former points to printing by a civilian establishment, straight edges by a Luftwaffe darkroom (not always the case, as some civilian establishments used straight edges). Are the photos small (6 x 10cm), or large? If there are lots of large straight-edged photos without any civilian photo shop stamps on the back, chances are they were printed by a Luftwaffe unit.

There should be plenty of clues scattered throughout the album. You just need to search for them.

Jason

[hornetsfan]

Hello Jason ,
As you might have noticed I do already have around 350 original photo albums ,most of which are WW2 and approximately 50% German Military , so I have experience in the field ...but certainly do not consider myself an expert .
The only face that reoccurs through the 2 albums is that of Richthofen . There are some very good front photos ...but this album is not like any other "ordinary " or lower rank service album . I have U-boat commanders album , pilots albums and even an American Generals album . In each case the albums are littered with the original owners face .
The 2 albums are similar in appearance externally , but not identical . The one which relates to Legion Condor has fairly untidy pencil captions ( like my hand writing not presentable ) . The second album has neater captions but it does not have the feel of a top end presentation photo album .
The photos are all different sizes ..great variation . 90 % or more have straight edges ...the majority of the photos are stuck in place , but the ones held in place with corner mounts have had Ok backs /Stamps ...again a wide rage of photo paper and stamps . some of the ones featuring Hitler and co with Richthofen have the stamp Atlantic Photo-Verlag F.k Herrmans on reverse .
There are some excellent quality photos of Germans at the front , Stukas in flight , Russian POWs , General destruction , heathly looking Jewish Civilians at Witebsk ( x 16 )
I'm fully prepared to believe the above could well be professional unit photos .
The ones that are intriguing are the fairly relaxed photos of military top brass ...Kesselring , generals and majors ...with each of these photos the only person not named is Richthofen ...and these images though still good quality do not have the feel of professionally taken images . There are also groups of photos which were obviously taken at the one location and date . Richthofen must appear in at least 30 of the photos . The ones I put on the link are in full dress uniform , he is pictured more relaxed in others .
From experience i'm confident these albums are period ...certainly not cobbled together to deceive myself ...the photos have been in the albums for the required number of decades . ( I have been completely conned in the past and I'm not so arrogant to believe it will never happen again ) .
The high quality of the aerial photographs is not something I have previously seen.
So what do we know about the Atlantic stamp ?
Many thanks
Jim

[hornetsfan]

A few of the larger glossy photos in the Legion Condor album appear to be press photos .

[hornetsfan]

Have grown much more confident that the albums belonged to Richthofen .
I have now got my eye in for identifying him from the rear , side and in groups ..up to 60 photos contain his image .
..and something I had not noticed ....My girlfriend looked through the Russia album and picked up that many of the photos have a lower case I and a comma to denote his presence .
There would no doubt have been many more albums ..the Russia album is full but only covers a few months . I have no idea what happened to his other albums ..perhaps in time they will come to light .

[jmark]

Hi Jim,

Apologies if I seemed condescending... it was completely unintentional, I was just offering my experience of Luftwaffe albums. I've got several in my collection and all of them contain photos printed in a unit's darkroom. I've even got albums to 2 different guys from the same squadron (one an officer, the other an NCO), and the amount of identical photos is incredible.

It's hard to give opinions without seeing more photos. Perhaps you could post some more, marked with a watermark for protection. A few scans of the captions, including the "i" to denote Richthofen's presence, would be helpful. I've seen many Germany album owners label themselves with "ich", but never "i".

The wide range of sizes is interesting, as it suggests that the album owner obtained photos from different sources (friends, unit photos, press photos, etc.). Something to bear in mind is that this album could have been compiled by someone close to von Richthofen, such as a staff officer, an orderly, or even a driver. For the moment, trying to prove or disprove that Richthofen was the original owner is a sensible course of action.

By the way, "Atlantic" is a press photo company. WAF member Todd Gylsen is probably the most knowledgeable person about these things. He has an excellent thread about such markings.

Jason

[jmark]

By the way, "Atlantic" is a press photo company. WAF member Todd Gylsen is probably the most knowledgeable person about these things. He has an excellent thread about such markings.

Here's the link to Todd's thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=298544

He discusses the Atlantic stamp in great detail on the first two pages.

Jason

[hornetsfan]

Hello Jason , I did not remotely think you were being condescending, I was merely conveying that i'm not a total newby when it comes to German WW2 photo albums .
I to had thought the albums might have belonged to some one close to Richthofen ....and this might well end up being the case . Only time will tell .
This evening I have been scanning the first album to 1200Dpi ..Richthofen is in the majority of the images . There plenty of great press photos of Hitler and co , plus Richthofen on a huge Legion Condor parade in Berlin ..in this first album there are also a good number of him more relaxed on the deck of liner Robert Ley which was one of the ships used to bring the troops back from Spain .
If the album was not the property of Richthofen , it certainly belonged to someone who was close to him and a big fan
I'm off to bed now , But will continue scanning tomorrow and add some images for you to view .
Many thanks
Jim

[hornetsfan]

Hello again Jason ,
I have now added captions and heavily cropped photos where lower case" I " denotes Richthofen ...these are all in the Russia album. http://www.throughtheireyes2.co.uk/Forum-pics.html

There are 13 Atlantic press photos , all seem to have been taken at a legion Condor parade in Berlin ...great quality photos Richthofen is in 11 of them, alongside Hitler in 7 . All top brass of the time featured .
There are 4 other large press photos 3 of these have Bilderdienst Bittner on reverse ..2 show same group of 5 men of legion Condor holding up large pennant / flag with plane behind . The third is of Richthofen , Franco and other
The fourth has stamp Presse Bild Zentrale and shows Richthofen plus 3 others in open top car ...again Legion Condor . All are in excellent condition .
I have never shown interest in Press photos , preferring ordinary personally taken "snap shots" ...what are they likely to be worth ?
I have no intention of breaking this lot up , but I genuinely have no idea of value .
Many thanks
Jim