le.Art.Abt. 818

[werner geier]

dear group,
i´m after Raupenschlepper Ost epherma like a squirrel collecting nuts.
the keyword is "nuts".
now and then i come across award documents. being more the hardware guy (tracks, axles, grease!) i always feel a bit uneasy, as this is an area where my knowledge is rather limited (still i try to learn). recently acquired this grouping for an Obergefreiten from le.Art.Abt. 818. overall appearance seemed o.k. on first sight, but now the stamp of the ostmedaiile doc, awarded 14.9.42 troubles me. it bears the designation “le.Art.Abt. (RSO) III./818 (same stamp as on the ´44 dated wound badge doc). with no Tessin at hand i dont know when exactly Art.Abt 818 received the RSO-suffix, but i do know that the first RSO left the Steyr factory in October ´42 and that the new grouped light artillery units equipped with RSO according to KstN didnt appear before march ´43.
can it be that the guy was awarded the ostmedaille in september ´42 and the document was issued much later?
note that the ´41 KvK doc has a faint, plain "Art.Abt.818" stamp.
to make things even more complicated, i have a soldbuch (zweitschrift) for a leutnant in le.Art.Abt. (RSO) II./818 that states the 30.7.42 as award date for the ostmedaille. also the stamp is slightly different (bearing in mind that it´s from II./818 and not III./818).
is there an explanation for all of this? or am i knee deep in ****? should i go back to sandblasting and leave the paperwork to others?
werner

[werner geier]

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[werner geier]

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[werner geier]

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[Simon O.]

Hi Werner

I saw this group when it was for sale and remember reaching for Tessin to doublecheck it wasn't the RSO unit which went to the 1 Ski-Jäger div. i also remember noticing something odd about it then, if i remember correctly Tessin states that III.\818 was a schwere abt. and it was II.\818 that was the RSO abt.

I'll reply more fully later this evening when i'm home but these need a closer look. One thing though, you say that the stamp on the KvK doc is Art.Abt.818, and yet it's supposed to be signed by a korps commander at korps HQ??????
The signatures, look at the 'korps commanders' signature and the abteilung commanders signature, look VERY similar don't they? we need to check which korps this unit was with at the time and who the commander was.

[werner geier]

simon,
thanks for the reply. If there´s prove in tessin the III./818 being the schwere
abteilung, then we dont have to look any further.
sorry, the stamp on the KvK doc is in fact a Korps stamp (XIII ?)
regards, werner

[werner geier]

signatures

[Akira Takiguchi]

Per http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...tReg/AR818.htm it appears OK, and the KVK stamp is definitely Korps stamp.

[Simon O.]

Thanks Akira, that makes things look a lot better. As long as the Korps commander sig checks out i think you're ok with these. If it's XIII korps then it should be General der Infanterie Erich Straube according to the lexikon website.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/.../XIIIKorps.htm

[werner geier]

thanks guys,
but still the question remains: why does a sept. ´42 ostmedaille document bear a stamp/designation that came in existence in may ´43 ?

[If it's XIII korps then it should be General der Infanterie Erich Straube [/QUOTE]

another oddity. it´s the signature of General der Infanterie Hans Felber,
predecessor of Straube according to the website. But obviously this is a typo, as he´s supposed to have been Korps-Kommandeur from 25. Oktober 1940-21. April 1940...
w.

[V. J. Kursietis]

Hi gentlemen!

It is undoubtedly the signature of Hans Felber on the 1st doc. My information has him as Kdr. Gen. XIII AK from 25 Oct 1940-14 Jan 1942, which would fit with the date on the doc.

Regards,

VJK

[werner geier]

thank you, VJK!

[Simon O.]

Tessin does not show Art.Abt. III./818 as becoming le.Art.Abt. (RSO) III./818, only II./818, I also checked Dr. Niehorster's Tessin errata and there's no mention there either. IMHO this is an omission in Tessin, not an unknown occurance, rather than a problem with the document.

Tessin also shows XIII Korps as being part of the 16 Armee based in the Netherlands in January 1941, something which is omitted on the Lexikon website.

As for the date on the eastfront medal doc. It could well have been awarded much later. Could it be that the date was when it was authorised but that the document and perhaps medal, only followed on much later, perhaps when the unit was withdrawn from the front and rebuilt as le.Art.Abt. (RSO) III./818?

The way to be sure would be to track down the names of the unit commanders but that could be a little difficult.

[Ian Jewison]

As for the date on the eastfront medal doc. It could well have been awarded much later. Could it be that the date was when it was authorised but that the document and perhaps medal, only followed on much later, perhaps when the unit was withdrawn from the front and rebuilt as le.Art.Abt. (RSO) III./818?

Bingo....Simon hit the nail on the head....with Ostmedaille citations the date on them is usually when they were officially entitled to the medal, however paperwork for these medals took time to go through.
If you look at the KVK he is a Kanonier in 1941, the wound badge has him as an Obergefreiter in 1944.....the Ostmedaille has him also as an Obergefreiter in 1942! This could be the case or the fact he award was officialy rendered much later than 1942!

Also the fact that the stamp you mention did not come into effect until May 1943 confirms that it must have been issued after that date!

Werner do you know the date of his promotion to Obergefreiter?

I actually have examples of these awards being render in 1944, some two years after he was officially entitled to it!

Hope that answers your question Werner (PM!)?

Regards, Ian

[werner geier]

Werner do you know the date of his promotion to Obergefreiter?

no, sorry.

ian, many thanks for your expertise! feels good, when the fog clears...
best regards, werner