Most Expensive Third Reich Signature?

[BrianK]

After watching the new blu-ray edition of "Schindler's List" - the historical accuracy of which I have some doubts - I was wondering about the real world rarity and price of an Oskar Schindler autograph. I googled on the internet a bit and came up with none currently for sale. But I did come up with a story from 2008 about the only known signed photo of Schindler being up for sale for $154,000. Does anyone know if this sale actually took place, or of any recent sales of Schindler's autograph? If it did, then Oskar Schindler surely must be the most valuable Third Reich signature.

[frankandfrank]

Schindler Signature of 154.000 US $? For me the signature is 50 - 100 US $.

[BrianK]

Where can I buy one?

[max history]

Schindler's List summarised the story of the enamelling factory in Krakow and the liquidation of the ghetto quite accurately for most of the film. Remembering the need for "entertainment" on the big screen, some of the plot was dramatized for the sake of audience interest. Generally, Spielberg stuck mainly to the story and the technical advisors on things such as uniform detail were excellent. Unfortunately, Spielberg as usual went over the top towards the end with Schindler breaking down in tears in the ring scene. Until then it was quite believable, but soon deteriorated into unbelievable bollocks.
As for Schindler's autograph.....the ones appearing on the market are usually fakes. Having said that, genuine examples attract reasonably high prices.....certainly more than 50-100 USD, but 154000? Total fantasy......unless it was on the original list of course!
I should also add that Schindler's signature cannot really be counted as a Third Reich autograph.
Max.

[crfraser]

Just curious why Schinder isn't a 3rd reich signature Max. I was under the understanding that he was affiliated with Canaris' Abwehr in some official capacity.

Cheers

Colin

[max history]

Just curious why Schinder isn't a 3rd reich signature Max. I was under the understanding that he was affiliated with Canaris' Abwehr in some official capacity.

Cheers

Colin

Please expand. As far as I know, he was a failed womanising businessman who took advantage of cheap Jewish labour to make a fortune and then lost it. Some believe he only helped the Jews towards the end of the war because he realised that the war was lost and there would be repercussions. I don't know. How he could have been of help to military intelligence mystifies me. There is some suggestion that he allegedly helped the Gestapo and this is more believable. Probably the Abwehr connection is another fairy story which grew up around him after the war. Maybe you have better evidence?
Max.

[max history]

.....

[crfraser]

Hi Max - I don't have access to my library today but you can find lots of internet refrerences to OS being recruited into the Abwehr in '36 - eg http://www.canaris.dk/new_page_5.htm. I don't get the impresssion he stayed long but the connections must have been useful. Note that I did not include the link to the story found on David Irving's site.

While a lot of these postings are not inherently reliable in themselves, there are a lot of them and I know I read a reference to the same in a solid bio of Canaris I was into last month while researching a scale model bust of the Admiral I sculpted.

On the original topic, I recall a Claus von Stauffenberg postcard (the one from Hamilton) that sold for ~22,000 Euro in a Stargardt auction a couple of years ago.

Colin

[BrianK]

There definitely is an Abwehr/Canaris connection - which makes it a TR autograph no matter what his party affilliations exactly were. He was a spy and turned helpful to the Jewish cause when he found out through his high placed connections which way the war was trending. Anyone who knows of an example for sale now post it here. I'll take the Stauffenberg example as the current high unless I have good evidence otherwise.

[max history]

There definitely is an Abwehr/Canaris connection - which makes it a TR autograph no matter what his party affilliations exactly were. He was a spy and turned helpful to the Jewish cause when he found out through his high placed connections which way the war was trending.

Sorry, but I'm not convinced. Much the same as Bormann and Müller working for the NKVD....plenty of references, but no evidence and total crap. Where's the evidence? Until evidence surfaces that a failed, untrustworthy, womanising businessman and salesman was useful to the German Wehrmacht, I'll remain sceptical. You didn't have to have high placed connections to know the war was lost in 1943, let alone 1944 and 1945!! Everyone knew it. And Schindler's only affiliations were to his wallet, nothing to do with any party, unless it was one involving champagne and women.
In my opinion, Schindler took an opportunity to make money using cheap labour and when it all came on top, he jumped ship and took steps to save his own neck. It worked. Himmler tried something similar in 1945, but he was in too deep.
As for the Third Reich autograph scenario, would you include all the civilian informants for the Gestapo in that category? Or Count Bernadotte? To my mind, a Third Reich autograph belongs to members of the armed forces, NSDAP government, NSDAP officials, local government and their respective services. If it were proved Schindler was a bona fide paid up member of the Abwehr, then I'll concede the point, but at the moment all we have is supposition.
There are many autographs more expensive than von Stauffenberg. It all depends on who signs what and what is the amount someone is willing to pay for a 'must have' example. Who knows what is out there? Think about it. Some never see the light of day and some exchange hands only in private sales. Maybe the question should be "what is the most desirable Third Reich autograph?"
Max.

[Thorsten B.]

Sorry, but I'm not convinced. Much the same as Bormann and Müller working for the NKVD....plenty of references, but no evidence and total crap. Where's the evidence? Until evidence surfaces that a failed, untrustworthy, womanising businessman and salesman was useful to the German Wehrmacht, I'll remain sceptical. You didn't have to have high placed connections to know the war was lost in 1943, let alone 1944 and 1945!! Everyone knew it. And Schindler's only affiliations were to his wallet, nothing to do with any party, unless it was one involving champagne and women.
In my opinion, Schindler took an opportunity to make money using cheap labour and when it all came on top, he jumped ship and took steps to save his own neck. It worked. Himmler tried something similar in 1945, but he was in too deep.
As for the Third Reich autograph scenario, would you include all the civilian informants for the Gestapo in that category? To my mind, a Third Reich autograph belongs to members of the armed forces, NSDAP government, local government and their respective services. If it were proved Schindler was a bona fide paid up member of the Abwehr, then I'll concede the point, but at the moment all we have is supposition.
There are many autographs more expensive than von Stauffenberg. It all depends on who signs what and what is the amount someone is willing to pay for a 'must have' example. Who knows what is out there? Think about it. Some never see the light of day and some exchange hands only in private sales. Maybe the question should be "what is the most desirable Third Reich autograph?"
Max.

Great observation from your side!!

[Mithrandir]

If it's the collectors field, it would fit perfectly in an autograph collection.
I would ask 1500 Euro for a signed photo. So Ralf if you ever find one for 100 bucks I will certainly buy it!

[crfraser]

Thanks Max - I was pretty sure that you would say that (you will note that I hedged on the quality of the links I provided). It doesn't surprise me that Schindler may have had Abwehr connections but I can't prove it easily so I guess that's that.

Maybe the question we should be asking in light of your accurate comment on private sales is what is the most expensive 3R autograph in a public sale. That being said it could well be a document signed by multiple signers (eg a guest book) so that won't get us far either. I am sure there have been items sold for more than 22,000 E....that's just the most expensive I have seen in my narrow collecting field.

Most desireable won't help much unless you lay out some more criteria...as you say desirabilty comes down to the individual must have reflex. There are many signatures others would give a body part for that I wouldn't turn my head to look at and likley vice versa.

Regard

Colin

[BrianK]

ROFLMAO - There is a 800 page researched reference book on Schindler that shows his Abwehr/Canaris connections. That wasn't even the point of the post - and I don't want to spend time with the know it alls on here about that historical fact. I just want to know one thing - can anyone post any examples of an Oskar Schindler signature, from their collection or anywhere else, with or without prices?

[max history]

Great attitude, Brian.