Very special and rare document

[Br. James]

A wonderful pair of documents, Marcus; many thanks for sharing them with us! The first one, a proposed promotion, was written a few days after Himmler's disgrace at losing his command of Army Group Vistula. Himmler resided at a medical convalescent facility outside Berlin at this time, where he was obviously still able to dictate and sign documents -- though he had failed to organize any military action that might have lessened the impact of the approaching Soviet Army as it laid siege to Berlin. This document was sent to Hans Heinrich Lammers as Reichsminister and Chief of the Reichschancellery...a position which Lammers would also lose in a matter of weeks, when he supported Göring's bid for ascension. From documents such as this one, we can easily understand how Hitler came to feel that all of his closest supporters were opposing him in his critical hour of need.

Br. James

[SMV]

Marcus,

What can I say other than.........WOW.

What an incredible and utterly superb document you have. Bravo

Graham, thank you for the kind words, that means a lot coming from a collector with items of such high caliber as yours.

I am quite humbled to own the directive and I am certain that Peter Hoffmann did not have the same records available to him when he wrote "Hitler's Personal Security." In his book, Hoffmann writes several long paragraphs describing the Winter Olympic Games in Garmicsh-Partenkirchen, but only 2 vague sentences concerning the Summer Games in Berlin.

Interestingly though, the Summer Games directive came with a few more items: a large "Verkehrsplan" or traffic map of Garmicsh-Partenkirchen, a "Zeitplan u. Eintrittskarten" showing detailed diagrams of the Winter Games stadiums and times and dates of events, and lastly a handwritten and typed "Quartierliste der Nationen" showing where all of the games contestents would be staying and the exact number of guests at each location in G-P.
With that I concluded that the original owner was most definitely part of the security at both the Summer and Winter Games and either an RSD or Gestapo agent!

Regards,

Marcus

[SMV]

A wonderful pair of documents, Marcus; many thanks for sharing them with us! The first one, a proposed promotion, was written a few days after Himmler's disgrace at losing his command of Army Group Vistula. Himmler resided at a medical convalescent facility outside Berlin at this time, where he was obviously still able to dictate and sign documents -- though he had failed to organize any military action that might have lessened the impact of the approaching Soviet Army as it laid siege to Berlin. This document was sent to Hans Heinrich Lammers as Reichsminister and Chief of the Reichschancellery...a position which Lammers would also lose in a matter of weeks, when he supported Göring's bid for ascension. From documents such as this one, we can easily understand how Hitler came to feel that all of his closest supporters were opposing him in his critical hour of need.

Br. James

Thank you Br. James! Yes, Himmler would have been feeling quite down the day he signed the Recommendation for Promotion document. Not only had he been sidelined from commanding the Army Group Vistula the day before, but he had finally revealed to an "outsider" that he had been trying for months to gain contact with the Allies and arrange a separate peace with the Western powers. Himmler's replacement, Gen. Heinrici was rather taken aback by this, but kept his mouth shut. During this time and the remaining month 1/2 of the war, Walter Schellenberg was pressing Himmler to have Hitler killed, but he did not have the guts to proceed. Anyway, Hitler would be dead by April 30, and Himmler two months to the day, May 23, 1945.

The doc. was indeed to be sent to Lammers office. Himmler even uses a straight edge to draw a line through regular chain of offices and writes in the word "Reichs"kanzlei, bypassing normal route of approval. This can be seen under his signature on front page.

Regards,

Marcus

[max history]

A wonderful pair of documents, Marcus; many thanks for sharing them with us! The first one, a proposed promotion, was written a few days after Himmler's disgrace at losing his command of Army Group Vistula. Himmler resided at a medical convalescent facility outside Berlin at this time, where he was obviously still able to dictate and sign documents -- though he had failed to organize any military action that might have lessened the impact of the approaching Soviet Army as it laid siege to Berlin. This document was sent to Hans Heinrich Lammers as Reichsminister and Chief of the Reichschancellery...a position which Lammers would also lose in a matter of weeks, when he supported Göring's bid for ascension. From documents such as this one, we can easily understand how Hitler came to feel that all of his closest supporters were opposing him in his critical hour of need.

Br. James

This is not entirely correct.
These recommendations for promotion were originally directed to Otto Meissinger as Staatsminister und Chef der Präsidialkanzlei des Führers und Reichskanzlers. They were subsequently directed to the office of the Reichsminister und Chef der Reichskanzlei Hans Heinrich Lammers who had overall responsibility for these matters in the Reichskanzlei. The reason for this was Himmler was not signing as Reichsführer-SS, but as Chef der Deutschen Polizei und Reichsminister des Innen. Police appointments were a State matter, not purely SS. Himmler would not have personally made the alteration in the box under his signature and in any case, the word "Reichs" is not his handwriting. I would be interested to see the lower half of the front page.
Himmler was not residing at Hohenlychen, the medical facility referred to by Br. James, at the time this document was signed. He was mobile and perfectly capable of administering matters. In fact, Himmler only made use of Hohenlychen as a Feldkommandostelle as a matter of convenience. In truth, his only ailments during the last months of the war were his recurrent stomach cramps (almost certainly brought about by stress) and a bad cold. In fact he left Hohenlychen on 19 March 1945 and returned to Berlin. He did not return to Hohenlychen until 2 April. He handed over command of Army Group Weichsel to Heinrici at Himmler's Feldkommandostelle "Birkenwald" just north of Berlin on 22 March and on the date of this document, Himmler was at Wustrau, returning to Berlin on 24 March.
Max.

[SMV]

Hello Max,

Far be it for me to differ on historical events with you, but are you sure Br. James not correct. Under normal circumstances, you would be correct about Police and SS Recommendation for Appointment being directed to Meissinger, but at this late date in the war, for whatever reason, Himmler bypasses the Prasidialkanzlei des Fuehrer u. Reichskanzlers normal route. Note Lammers address is glued over Meissingers address and Lammers added. Also, in this instance, Himmler is signing not as Chef d. Pol. u. R.M d. Innen., but as Chef des Reichssicherheitsdienst. I beg to differ as well about Himmler writing the word "Reichs"kanzlei, that is definitely Himmler's handwriting.

In his book, Heinz Hohne's "Order of the Deaths Head" pg. 631 in paperback"The first to hear of this change of heart was Col. Gen. Heinrici when he arrived at Prenzlau headquarters on 22 March to take over." Hohenlychen is in Prenzlau right?

The large space on the bottom of front page is blank. Whether Himmler had something up his sleeve or because of the terrible war situation, THIS document did not follow the normal route of approval. In fact, according to Peter Hoffmann, Hitler always personally okayed the hiring and promotions of his SS-BK and RSD men, but not in this case, for whatever reason.

Regards,

Marcus

[Chris Boonzaier]

Are these from the Berlin Document center heist?

[max history]

Hello Max,

Far be it for me to differ on historical events with you, but are you sure Br. James not correct. Under normal circumstances, you would be correct about Police and SS Recommendation for Appointment being directed to Meissinger, but at this late date in the war, for whatever reason, Himmler bypasses the Prasidialkanzlei des Fuehrer u. Reichskanzlers normal route. Note Lammers address is glued over Meissingers address and Lammers added. Also, in this instance, Himmler is signing not as Chef d. Pol. u. R.M d. Innen., but as Chef des Reichssicherheitsdienst. I beg to differ as well about Himmler writing the word "Reichs"kanzlei, that is definitely Himmler's handwriting.

In his book, Heinz Hohne's "Order of the Deaths Head" pg. 631 in paperback"The first to hear of this change of heart was Col. Gen. Heinrici when he arrived at Prenzlau headquarters on 22 March to take over." Hohenlychen is in Prenzlau right?

The large space on the bottom of front page is blank. Whether Himmler had something up his sleeve or because of the terrible war situation, THIS document did not follow the normal route of approval. In fact, according to Peter Hoffmann, Hitler always personally okayed the hiring and promotions of his SS-BK and RSD men, but not in this case, for whatever reason.

Regards,

Marcus

Marcus,
I didn't say this document did not go to Lammers' office. I just gave a potted history of these documents. They all went to Lammers after a certain date, fairly late in the war as seen by the printed address on your document. (Not sure of the date of the change.) The bits I disagree with are his comments about where Himmler was on the date of this document. If you check, Himmler's diary supports what I said. I also disagree with your observation that the word "Reichs" was written by Himmler. It does not compare with his known handwriting at all. The letter "R" is good to compare. Not Himmler's at all. The ink also appears to be a different colour in your scan. Also, this document would have been prepared secretarially and Himmler would have just appended his signature. He signed literally hundreds of these, mainly police promotions.
You are also mistaken in your observation that the RSD was a Party organisation. It was a State organisation formed mainly from SS and Police personnel for the close protection of high profile government personnel. Its members wore SS uniform or civilian dress, but it was nothing to do with the SD. As such, it came under the supervision of Rattenhuber and subsequently Himmler as Chief of the German Police and Minister of the Interior. This type of promotion recommendation document was used only for police and ministerial promotions and was nothing like SS promotion recommendations; an entirely different type of document.
Max.

[max history]

Are these from the Berlin Document center heist?

No.

[Chris Boonzaier]

No.

That is a very definate answer.... may I ask how you are so sure?

[max history]

In his book, Heinz Hohne's "Order of the Deaths Head" pg. 631 in paperback"The first to hear of this change of heart was Col. Gen. Heinrici when he arrived at Prenzlau headquarters on 22 March to take over." Hohenlychen is in Prenzlau right?

Regards,

Marcus

No. Just to clarify, Prenzlau is about 20 miles north-east of Hohenlychen. Birkenwald was situated at a place called Birkenhain which is about 5 miles from Prenzlau on the route to Hohenlychen. All three are different places, so both Höhne and Br. James are mistaken.
My source is an original primary source, not a secondary book source which can often be wrong.
Max.

[max history]

That is a very definate answer.... may I ask how you are so sure?

Because these documents were stored in ministerial archives, not in NSDAP archives. The thefts from the BDC were almost without exception from SSO and RS files. These documents are for police and ministerial (civil service) promotions, i.e. government service promotions. Over the years, I spent many weeks at the BDC and never saw one of these type promotion recommendations in the thousands of files I accessed.
Max.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Because these documents were stored in ministerial archives, not in NSDAP archives. The thefts from the BDC were almost without exception from SSO and RS files. These documents are for police and ministerial (civil service) promotions, i.e. government service promotions. Over the years, I spent many weeks at the BDC and never saw one of these type promotion recommendations in the thousands of files I accessed.
Max.

Understood, and logical.

Does anyone have any idea if they ever reached a final tally on missing docs, or did they just figure it was impossible to know at the end of the day?

[SMV]

Marcus,
I didn't say this document did not go to Lammers' office. I just gave a potted history of these documents. They all went to Lammers after a certain date, fairly late in the war as seen by the printed address on your document. (Not sure of the date of the change.) The bits I disagree with are his comments about where Himmler was on the date of this document. If you check, Himmler's diary supports what I said. I also disagree with your observation that the word "Reichs" was written by Himmler. It does not compare with his known handwriting at all. The letter "R" is good to compare. Not Himmler's at all. The ink also appears to be a different colour in your scan. Also, this document would have been prepared secretarially and Himmler would have just appended his signature. He signed literally hundreds of these, mainly police promotions.
You are also mistaken in your observation that the RSD was a Party organisation. It was a State organisation formed mainly from SS and Police personnel for the close protection of high profile government personnel. Its members wore SS uniform or civilian dress, but it was nothing to do with the SD. As such, it came under the supervision of Rattenhuber and subsequently Himmler as Chief of the German Police and Minister of the Interior. This type of promotion recommendation document was used only for police and ministerial promotions and was nothing like SS promotion recommendations; an entirely different type of document.
Max.

Hi Max,

I suppose I miss read what you were trying to say when you wrote:

Max-"These recommendations for promotion were originally directed to Otto Meissinger as Staatsminister und Chef der Präsidialkanzlei des Führers und Reichskanzlers."

This document never went to Meissinger's office as was normally prescribed.

Max-"The bits I disagree with are his comments about where Himmler was on the date of this document. If you check, Himmler's diary supports what I said."

Sorry, but I don't have a copy of Himmler's diary. I have always believed that Heinz Hoehne's book to be the definitive history of the SS.


Max-"I also disagree with your observation that the word "Reichs" was written by Himmler. It does not compare with his known handwriting at all. The letter "R" is good to compare. Not Himmler's at all. The ink also appears to be a different colour in your scan."

I must disagree with your observation. The ink is the same as Himmler's signature, I have the document in hand. While the "R" may or may not differ in style, the word "Reichs" has all of the characteristics of Himmler's writing.


Max-"Also, this document would have been prepared secretarially and Himmler would have just appended his signature."

Normally this would be correct, but no initial's were made showing anyone else made a notation under Himmler's signature, as would be the norm.

Max-"You are also mistaken in your observation that the RSD was a Party organisation. It was a State organisation formed mainly from SS and Police personnel"

Did I ever state that the RSD was a Party organization?


Max-"You are also mistaken in your observation that the RSD was a Party organisation. It was a State organisation formed mainly from SS and Police personnel for the close protection of high profile government personnel. Its members wore SS uniform or civilian dress, but it was nothing to do with the SD. As such, it came under the supervision of Rattenhuber and subsequently Himmler as Chief of the German Police and Minister of the Interior.



Actually;

"The OKW declared that the RSD officers guarding Hitler during the war were Wehrmacht officials and there were given the status of secret military police (and was now also referred to as the Reichssicherheitsdienst Gruppe Geheime Feldpolizei z.b.V.) and could now request help from the regular feldgendarmerie as well as any regular troops, enter any military building, wear the uniform of any branch etc." Re: "Hitler's Personal Security", P. Hoffmann, pg. 43

"Hitler made Himmler Chief of the Reichssicherheitsdienst" Pg. 36, P. Hoffmann

"The immediate RSD commanders were Rattenhuber and his deputies" Pg. 37, P. Hoffmann, "Hitler's Personal Security"

Max-"This type of promotion recommendation document was used only for police and ministerial promotions and was nothing like SS promotion recommendations; an entirely different type of document".

I agree with you, did I state other wise?

Regards,

Marcus

[SMV]

Are these from the Berlin Document center heist?

Hello Chris,

This document was brought back to the US by Major Robert G, Schaefer after working with the defendants at the Nuremberg Trials. You can see his name signed very lightly on the top of the front page of the Promotion document.

Regards,

Marcus

[max history]

Hi Max,

I suppose I miss read what you were trying to say when you wrote:

Max-"These recommendations for promotion were originally directed to Otto Meissinger as Staatsminister und Chef der Präsidialkanzlei des Führers und Reichskanzlers."

This document never went to Meissinger's office as was normally prescribed.

Max-"The bits I disagree with are his comments about where Himmler was on the date of this document. If you check, Himmler's diary supports what I said."

Sorry, but I don't have a copy of Himmler's diary. I have always believed that Heinz Hoehne's book to be the definitive history of the SS.


Max-"I also disagree with your observation that the word "Reichs" was written by Himmler. It does not compare with his known handwriting at all. The letter "R" is good to compare. Not Himmler's at all. The ink also appears to be a different colour in your scan."

I must disagree with your observation. The ink is the same as Himmler's signature, I have the document in hand. While the "R" may or may not differ in style, the word "Reichs" has all of the characteristics of Himmler's writing.


Max-"Also, this document would have been prepared secretarially and Himmler would have just appended his signature."

Normally this would be correct, but no initial's were made showing anyone else made a notation under Himmler's signature, as would be the norm.

Max-"You are also mistaken in your observation that the RSD was a Party organisation. It was a State organisation formed mainly from SS and Police personnel"

Did I ever state that the RSD was a Party organization?


Max-"You are also mistaken in your observation that the RSD was a Party organisation. It was a State organisation formed mainly from SS and Police personnel for the close protection of high profile government personnel. Its members wore SS uniform or civilian dress, but it was nothing to do with the SD. As such, it came under the supervision of Rattenhuber and subsequently Himmler as Chief of the German Police and Minister of the Interior.



Actually;

"The OKW declared that the RSD officers guarding Hitler during the war were Wehrmacht officials and there were given the status of secret military police (and was now also referred to as the Reichssicherheitsdienst Gruppe Geheime Feldpolizei z.b.V.) and could now request help from the regular feldgendarmerie as well as any regular troops, enter any military building, wear the uniform of any branch etc." Re: "Hitler's Personal Security", P. Hoffmann, pg. 43

"Hitler made Himmler Chief of the Reichssicherheitsdienst" Pg. 36, P. Hoffmann

"The immediate RSD commanders were Rattenhuber and his deputies" Pg. 37, P. Hoffmann, "Hitler's Personal Security"

Max-"This type of promotion recommendation document was used only for police and ministerial promotions and was nothing like SS promotion recommendations; an entirely different type of document".

I agree with you, did I state other wise?

Regards,

Marcus

Marcus,
calm down; I'm not trying to prove you wrong even though we disagree on a number of points you raise.
For a start, Höhne's book cannot be described as the definitive history of the SS because it contains numerous errors and is not comprehensive enough....no book is. Höhne's book cannot also be described as a primary source as he used so many other sources. Himmler's diary for his last months will soon be published as his 1941/42 Dienstkalendar is. This still does not alter the fact that Hohenlychen, Birkenwald and Prenzlau are three different places, as can be seen on any good map.
These promotion documents were originally addressed to Meisinger until that system changed. By the date of this document the system had changed and they then went to the office of Lammers. I do not know the date of the change.
As for Himmler's handwriting, we will just have to disagree on this. You have the advantage of having the document at hand, but as I pointed out, the ink colour in your scan looks different as does the handwriting.
I have seen countless of these ministerial and police promotion recommendations signed by Himmler and none of them have secretarial initials, including where any corrected mistakes or alterations were made prior to signing.
You insinuated that Himmler signed in his capacity as Reichsführer-SS as Chief of the Reichssicherheitsdienst. Maybe I misunderstood you, but my point is that the subject of your document was being recommended for promotion from a police rank to another police rank and therefore Himmler can only sign in his capacity as Chief of the German Police and Reichsminister of the Interior. Hence the use of this type of government police/civil service document.
All active police units could be referred to as Wehrmacht units (and often were.) The fact that they were referred to as Field Police units only strengthens the argument that they were more police than army or Waffen-SS. They had police rank structure and usually held SS ranking, but not all.
There is a very grey area between the RSD, SS and Police, much as in the case of the SD and Gestapo. Anyway, the bottom line is that we must disagree over certain aspects, but nothing you have quoted indicates to me that what I have said is incorrect.
Regards,
Max.

P.S. and by the way, it's a very nice document!