1940 Dated KC Prelim - Thoughts?

[InfanterieSammler]

Hi Guys,

Has anyone seen this one yet on eMedals?

I've yet to own a 1940 dated one, but all the ones I've seen/studied have been signed by von Brauchitsch from Oberkommando des Heeres.

The document itself looks fine to me, just never seen one coming of the Zentralabteilung, which seems a bit out of the norm. Thoughts...

JD

[Simon O.]

To kick off with, the photos are not of Hans von Schlebrügge, secondly, his formal RK doc is spelt Schlebrügge, but to be fair i have also seen it spelled with two e's.

the EKI spange raises several issues, all EK docs i've yet seen awarded during may\June 1940 from the 3 Geb.Div. have Div.Gef.St. rather than Narvik, also the date format is in numbers, not with Mai spelled out.

The stamp. most Narvik EK docs were issued post-battle and use the gebirgskorps Norwegen stamp. However i have seen a couple dated 10 June using the divisional stamp. Dietl's signature i feel uncomfortable with, it does change slightly but i've not seen one quite like this, in particular the way the ie section is formed.


here's one of my Narvik EKII's to compare, though note that it was typed up post-10 june 1940 (ie. after the Norwegian capitulation)

[Simon O.]

Here's an example using the divisional stamp (not in my collection)

[InfanterieSammler]

Hi Simon,

Very interesting points...We are certainly right up your alley with Narvik related material I was kinda of fixated on the Prelim, I wasn't even looking at the Spange document.

I've never seen another KC prelim issued this way - anyone else?

JD

[nick-j]

Hi John
I hadnt seen this post but just raised this point on the thread in which it was posted (sorry if its the wrong place) got to admit its not the usual signature you would expect to see.
Nick

[Simon O.]

The chef of OKW zentralabteilung at the time was Paul Winter

[Simon O.]

Is it just me or do both docs look as if they've been typed using the same typewriter?

[Brian R]

I see enough of a difference in the 1, 4 and the capital M where I don't think they are from the same typewriter. Very close, though.

[InfanterieSammler]

The chef of OKW zentralabteilung at the time was Paul Winter

The signature looks like Winter to me...hmmm.

That said, the Heerespersonalamt was the approving body for the RK, so why wouldn't the document be stamped from this office? Every 1940 dated VB I've seen (approx. 12 or so), has been signed by von Brauchitsch. Admittedly though, the Zentralabteilung was only one step removed in the process.There's a nice flow chart on Pg. 28 (English version) of the Scherzer book, which demonstrates this well.

Also, I never seen an RK VB marked with 'Berlin' before the date. Always some form of H.Qu.OHK

John

[Simon O.]

Can't believe everyone is sitting on the fence with this. I've a bit more time now to look more closely into these.


John, i'm in two minds here, but i'm leaning more and more to them being good, or at least the EKI, the photos confuse matters, but they're not an issue as we know they don't belong to the documents. Both docs are outside of the norm seen but that doesn't make them bad of course, in fact you might expect a competent faker to try and make them text book. The RK, if fake, demonstrates a very detailed knowledge of OKW\OKH, so why create something so outside of what is normally seen?

My guess is that it's to do with the theater of operations, we'd really have to see other prelim RK docs from Narvik or at least the Norwegian campaign to get a better idea, unfortunately i've only ever seen the formal docs. So for the RK doc, i'm afraid i have to sit on the fence.


Attached is a photocopy of the wardiary of the IIa of the 3 GD showing the award of the EKI spange to Schleebrügge. Note the spelling of his name and his position, i've also trawled through Dietl sigs and i found one from the 3 GD archives dated 3 May which is very close indeed to the one seen here.

[Simon O.]

comparrison of the spange stamp, the green one comes from another EKII. I'm pretty convinced now the EKI is good.

[InfanterieSammler]

Can't believe everyone is sitting on the fence with this.

Haha...I thought this would be a good one for a lively discussion. Perhaps collector's are not so interested in KC material anymore.

My initial impressions were the base KC document looked fine, but I have never seen one authorized from Zentralabteilung. It struck me as strange. That said, the ZA is only step removed in the approval chain from PA of the OKH, and that signature does look like it is Winter, so....

Nice work on the Spange Simon.

JD

[Simon O.]

Time for me to get off the fence.

I've been hitting my books and archives today trying to figure this out, firstly to find out why OKW zentralabteilung would be issuing this and not the regular OKH authority.

The answer lies in the command structure used for the invasion of Norway and Denmark. Gruppe XXI under Nikolaus von Falkenhorst was placed directly under OKW and not through OKH. Furthermore, other officers who were awarded the RK on the same date have a note 'direkt verleihung' along with their award details. ie. awarded directly.

Then finally i found this example in the volumes on the Gebirgstruppe of 'die ritterkeuzträger 1939-45' by biblio verlag
Sorko commanded II./GJR 137 which was fighting it's way Northwards towards Narvik

[InfanterieSammler]

Nice work Simon!

The OKW info makes perfect sense for the PA / OKH being out of the loop. The Sorko VB just puts the final nail in the coffin.

I'm thrilled to learn something new here.

JD

[Brian R]

Haha...I thought this would be a good one for a lively discussion. Perhaps collector's are not so interested in KC material anymore.

It certainly wasn't a question of not being interested. I don't really know RKs but was troubled by the award coming from the Zentralabteilung at OKW rather than the Heerespersonalamt. I couldn't make a comment either way. It all makes sense now given the tremendous detective work and understanding how it relates to von Falkenhorst being directly subordinate to OKW rather than OKH. Very interesting to say the least.