Haus Wachenfeld Plate

[GELIS44]

Please move to appropriate forum....

Are these plates original?

Thank You!

[randy@treadways]

Original from what time period?

The view shown, I think, is taken from a Heinrich Hoffmann photograph. The house did not appear that way after 1935, due to a major remodeling and expansion.

So... is it a 1939 plate showing how the house used to look? Is it a post-war Obersalzberg souvenir aimed at American GI's? Or is it from 1933 or 1934? Many possibilities....

Zoom in on the name of the manufacturer shown on the back, and one of our friends in Germany might be able to tell us whether that company existed before 1945.

[GELIS44]

Original from what time period?

The view shown, I think, is taken from a Heinrich Hoffmann photograph. The house did not appear that way after 1935, due to a major remodeling and expansion.

So... is it a 1939 plate showing how the house used to look? Is it a post-war Obersalzberg souvenir aimed at American GI's? Or is it from 1933 or 1934? Many possibilities....

Zoom in on the name of the manufacturer shown on the back, and one of our friends in Germany might be able to tell us whether that company existed before 1945.

I am wishing it was made between 1933 - 1945. I have a wooden plate in my collectoin showing Haus Wachenfeld that was sold to GI's as souvenirs, so this could also be a possibility. Here is a picture of the makers mark.

[randy@treadways]

http://antiques.about.com/od/researc...enthalMark.htm

Most of the Rosenthal marks on these Haus Wachenfeld plates just say Selb, and not Selb-Bavaria. I was curious why they would use Bavaria instead of Bayern- to me that points to postwar- just like the 'Germany' mark which began to be used in 1953.. But I did find one like yours in an auction from three years ago. In that one, the seller said this particular mark began to be used by the Rosenthal firm in 1923. I cannot verify the accuracy of any of these statements... just sharing them.

SPEAKING OF HAUS WACHENFELD... check out this "original model" which is for sale on eBay. What do you guys think about this model?
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Haus-Wachenfe...#ht_4696wt_906

Okay, everything so far is looking good for your piece. It was designed by Heinrich Fink for the Rosenthal firm.
If you can get a hold of this reference, look here for this specific piece:
Literature: Niecol / Rosenthal Art and decorative porcelain 1897-1945 IV pictures page 96, page 93 II

Rosenthal produced other porcelain Nazi items also, such as a porcelain bas-relief plaque of Hitler.

Okay, I found another one in an auction with the Selb-Bavaria mark, and this seller says that Rosenthal started using this mark in 1928. So... 1923 or 1928 start... either way it seems to point to this being a valid mark for 1930's usage by Rosenthal.

[Vid]

That mark is going to put that in the early 30's.

Kris

[randy@treadways]

By the way, the going price in auctions seems to be between 100 and 130 euros.

[Br. James]

I like this plate, too. While it's true that Haus Wachenfeld only actually looked like this version of Hitler's mountain chalet from the spring of 1934 -- when the garage level, terrace and other renovations were completed -- until this building was engulfed into the new design which brought about the Berghof, initially completed by the summer of 1936. But by that time Haus Wachenfeld had become so well-known throughout Nazi Germany that representations of it of all sorts continued to be created and sold well after Haus Wachenfeld ceased to exist as a building on its own. This plate, therefore, may well have been made by the Rosenthal firm in the late 1930s, but it should still be considered 'of the period.' But fakes do abound...!

Thanks, too, to Randy for sharing this model of Haus Wachenfeld with us. I have seen a very few of such models in the past, though apparently one or two of the major toy-makers, Elastolin or Lineol or perhaps another, did make such three-dimensional models; their period catalogs include a variety of model buildings and dioramas, though I have never actually seen a listing for a Haus Wachenfeld model. The particular model found in Randy's link is not architecturally correct; it does not include the 'Wintergarden' sunroom added to the front of the building during the expansion which featured the creation of an entire first floor to the chalet, including the addition of the garage and the famous terrace atop it (late 1933-34) -- which are present on this model. Also, Haus Wachenfeld had three sets of shuttered windows on each side of the balconied second floor, though only two sets are present on this model. This is not to say that the model was not produced within the TR period -- errors were always a possibility -- but the differences are striking to those who have studied this building throughout its evolution.

As always, I hope these thoughts are helpful.

Br. James

[randy@treadways]

apparently one or two of the major toy-makers, Elastolin or Lineol or perhaps another, did make such three-dimensional models
Br. James

The current seller of the model says it came from KIBRI, who is still around today. We know them today as the producer of miniature structures for the model railroad hobby.

[Filip]

I am wishing it was made between 1933 - 1945. I have a wooden plate in my collectoin showing Haus Wachenfeld that was sold to GI's as souvenirs, so this could also be a possibility. Here is a picture of the makers mark.

This is authentic porcelain plate manufactured by Rosenthal no later then 1933.

[Br. James]

Thanks Filip -- do you make this statement based upon the style of the Rosenthal mark or by some other identifying means?

Br. James

[randy@treadways]

According to Br. James, the picture includes architectural features which weren't added to Haus Wachenfeld until the spring of 1934.

[Filip]

Thanks Filip -- do you make this statement based upon the style of the Rosenthal mark or by some other identifying means?

Br. James

Absolutely. You can see the overall change of Rosenthal logo after 1933 , which had Selb Bavaria replaced by Germany Kunstabteilung Selb. But of course, there is a chance they were still using the old style in the spring of 1934.

[Filip]

Here is one I used to own.

[randy@treadways]

So, it would seem that this plate was probably produced first in 1934, soon after the garage or other touches were added, with the "1933" mark... then continued to be made for an indefinite period of years, with later marks.

Yours, therefore, Gelis44, is a "first firing".

[Br. James]

Yes, Randy has stated one possibility; another is that this plate was actually produced in 1933 and the Rosenthal mark on its reverse is accurate to the year. The picture on the plate's obverse is not a photograph but a drawing...the kind of drawing that would have been provided by the architect in order to give a sense of what the final building expansion project would look like when completed. There were probably several different views created by the architect's artist to give Hitler a solid idea of what he was having done to his little rustic chalet over the winter of 1933-34! In actuality, there may have still been snow on the ground in the Alps in the spring of 1934, yet this rendering shows the house as it would appear in summer, with lawn, landscape shrubbery, parking lot and driveway all finished. And I think one thing is also missing from this view: the flagpole that stood at the bottom edge of the new parking lot, whereon a tall swastika banner was raised whenever Hitler was in residence at Haus Wachenfeld. That nuance must have come later in 1934. This artistic rendition of the Führer's house and grounds quickly became so popular that it was still being sold when one could no longer identify Haus Wachenfeld for its surrounding by the Berghof.

Br. James