16 SS - Simon signed doc

[max history]

Sorry, Antony, but all these are much more bold in the strokes than yours (although the last one does have an appearance of a printed signature on these images) and unfortunately contribute towards confirmation that yours does not appear right. I wish it were different, but I'm afraid it's looking more and more like your example is a forgery. Sorry.
Max.

[max history]

Hi Gentlemen. Here is mine, extracted from a Group from a SS-Oscha in SS-A.R.17, direct from Family. A genuine one, somewhat later......

Can we see a better close-up quality hi-res scan of the signature please? From these scans, there are no signs of any crossovers and the signature appears to be a facsimile. Maybe better scans would prove otherwise.
Thanks,
Max.

[Lionel H.]

I have read carefully this most interesting Thread, and have not clear Opinion about the originality or not from Antony's Document. Only 2 remarks about this Document : It is not an Award Document, just a Report, I am not convinced that it has - even if it would be an original - a very high commercial Value. Concerning Marc Sayings, if he saw the same document as an "Abschrift" (duplicata), it is signed as "F.d.R.d.A" (Für die Richtigkeit der Abschrift) by a lower Rank, it is very logical. As this one is not mentioned "Abschrift", then it could be consider as THE original, and then, signed by Simon. BUT then, the Abschift should be marked "gez. Simon" on the lower right (gezeichnet Simon). If not...... It means that the original has not be signed by Simon !! The german language, most of all military Language, is always in accordance with precise Rules !! I do not have the Book mentioned by Mark.... perharps Mark could chek if the mention "gez. Simon" appears on the one published in the Book !
This points WITHOUT conclusions from my Side if original or not, just to take part to this interseting Debate ! Lionel.

[Hundestaffel]

Anthony:

This desirable doc / sig tomfoolery is - unfortunately - overly common. Max clearly and unquestionably called out the signature, MarcRikmenspoel the document itself. The fellow who you obtained the document from may have been collecting for 40 years, but the document / signature itself is about 20 minutes younger than when Im gleichen Schritt und Tritt first hit the market.

Here another example of a desirable document (this time KL) made for deception / profit - (make sure to check the link within the thread to view the original, legitimate document):

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=Auschwitz


"Hundestaffel"

[Lionel H.]

In the "Kriegstagebuch GvB" published 1993 by Schild Verlag, a numerous of Simon Signatures as a K.G. from XII SS-A.K., Poor quality, but still interesting. These four between 11.44 and 3.45. <p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/v/D/vDa0PEXBlxOM134358000292P1683.jpg"></p> <p><img src="http://cdn03.trixum.de/upload2/7/W/7WZe5Yahtigl134358001735P1683.jpg"></p> <p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/5/F/5FKfMBsxl1bR134358003266P1683.jpg"></p> <p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/T/x/TxMvNR1XIdQY134358005143P1683.jpg"></p>

[max history]

Anthony:

This desirable doc / sig tomfoolery is - unfortunately - overly common. Max clearly and unquestionably called out the signature, MarcRikmenspoel the document itself. The fellow who you obtained the document from may have been collecting for 40 years, but the document / signature itself is about 20 minutes younger than when Im gleichen Schritt und Tritt first hit the market.

Here another example of a desirable document (this time KL) made for deception / profit - (make sure to check the link within the thread to view the original, legitimate document):

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=Auschwitz


"Hundestaffel"

Thanks Trevor. That illustrates exactly what I was trying to say, that forgers obtain copies of authentic pieces and then produce forged copies so that the content cannot be questioned.
Max.

[max history]

More examples from Lionel of the bold definite strokes in Simon's signature, not present in Antony's example.
Max.

[MarcRikmenspoel]

Here's the pages in question, it is an "Abschrift" and, as I indicated before, does have a typed indication of Simon's signature. I'm not the best document judge, so seeing this, what do you all think now?

[Lionel H.]

Thanks Marc for showing the reference Document. As I wrote before, the published Abschrift shows obviously that the formal Document was signed by Simon ("gez.Simon"). Nobody spoke about the Stamp, which is perfekt in every point.
I am not convinced that this Document is a fake.

[max history]

Here's the pages in question, it is an "Abschrift" and, as I indicated before, does have a typed indication of Simon's signature. I'm not the best document judge, so seeing this, what do you all think now?

Marc,
Thanks. Seeing this reproduced in a book, with the fact that the original was signed by Simon, confirms the now strong possibility that a forger has typed a copy from a readily accessible source and added a fake signature. If it's from Im Gleichen Schritt und Tritt, this is quite a well known book. It indicates a forger who has done his homework in my opinion.
I am no aficionado of ink stamps, but I do know that there were a number of each example produced. A friend of mine collects originals and has several duplicates (unfortunately not of this particular one.)
I have submitted the scan of Antony's document to an American Third Reich autograph specialist who might, or might not, provide an assessment, and I am awaiting his reply. However, the more this goes on and the more I look at Antony's Simon signature, the more I am convinced it's a forgery.
Max.

[max history]

I've now received a few replies to my enquiries with Third Reich autograph specialists, a couple of which I would describe as experts. Here are pertinent excerpts from the replies so far:

"I think , like you, I would be a little nervous."

"....the signature has the appearance of a slow hand, indicating forgery."

"Without the benefit of examining the actual manuscript, my first impression is one of discomfort. I suggest the prospective purchaser has the piece properly appraised prior to completion."

"I do not have a wartime example with which to compare, but the example provided leaves me with a feeling of unease."

The man I consider as the foremost authority on Third Reich autographs has unfortunately not yet replied.
Max.

[mufasa]

I reread this topic because I was waiting for an autographed photo of Max Simon .... total disappointment! it does not even deserve to be posted for a comparison (in pencil, traced, stiff hand, undecided, really unlikely) .......

and since it is a argoument really interesting (and dangerous!) I put in order the signatures for the next time ...
(I hope I do not make mistakes in the references)

28-4-1943 (from Hucks216)

[mufasa]

23-8-1944 (from Mark C. Yerger)

[mufasa]

1-10-1944 (from Valsente)

[mufasa]

end 1944 - beginning 1945 (from 708 VGD)