16 SS - Simon signed doc

[Antonio Scapini]

Hi guys I post here one of last signed doc I bought in this summertime...

Is a doc of the 16 Reichsfuhrer-SS Division, signed by Simon. It's important for me because it was done when the division fought in Italy.

I hope you like it.
Antony.

[Antonio Scapini]

The Simon signature.

[Ilse]

Max Simon

Very nice and interesting document.

[max history]

Sorry, but I have serious reservations over this Simon signature.
Max.

[Antonio Scapini]

No problem Max, when you'll show us some other signatures of the same period, I'll be happy to believe in your words. Please, not show Simon signature of the 1939 or of the 1942, because as you know (the Hitler signature is an example...) the way to do signatures changes during the time.
This doc contains some informations that are difficult to find... I have also the NARA microfilm of the 16 RF-SS and they match.

[MarcRikmenspoel]

I'm on vacation right now, away from my books. Do any of you have Im Gleichen Schritt und Tritt, the history of the 16. SS-PGD? The book is full of document reproductions. I can check my copy when I get home, to see if this is in it, but if anyone else can check sooner, don't hesitate.

[max history]

No problem Max, when you'll show us some other signatures of the same period, I'll be happy to believe in your words. Please, not show Simon signature of the 1939 or of the 1942, because as you know (the Hitler signature is an example...) the way to do signatures changes during the time.
This doc contains some informations that are difficult to find... I have also the NARA microfilm of the 16 RF-SS and they match.

Hello Antony,
It's not the variation in the signature that produces the element of doubt I'm afraid. It's the manner in which this example has been produced. If you look at the strokes in the signature, you will notice the hesitant nature of the lines. To some they are described as slightly "wobbly." They are not strong and directional as in a genuine signature. Hesitancy is present in the vast majority of forged signatures as a result of drawing (copying) the signature. It ocurrs as a result of a slight sub-conscious tremor in the hand which is not present in a relaxed, but flourishing stroke of the pen in genuine signatures. If you compare your own handwriting with any other example you have tried to copy, you will see the difference with hesitancy present in the attempted copy. This can obviously improve with practice, but never entirely disappears because it's not natural.
As for the details in the body of the document, these are easily obtainable by the same method you obtained your microfilm. A genuine document can also be copied. Sadly, the financial return for just a few hours work can be very rewarding.
Sorry, but in my opinion your document is a forgery.
Max.

[Antonio Scapini]

I saw what you're talking about Max when I bought this doc. But I also thought that a hesitant hand also produce some points (expecially "up" and "down") where the ink is too much and forms some "spots".
I don't know if you understand what I'm saying, sorry but explain some technical opinions is a little bit hard!

All we can do some mistakes, and I'm always open to change my mind about this doc. I didn't have a lot of references for the Simon signature in 1944.
This doc came from the same collection (over 40 years ago) from which I take the Marseille doc I've posted here:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=607058

[Mark C. Yerger]

period Simon signature

[Ilse]

Max Simon

Max History and Mark,

Thanks for the explanation on the signature.

[mufasa]

a really interesting topic! thanks....

[Antonio Scapini]

Hi guys, here another signature that a friend of mine sent me via email after reading this thread.
Even this signature is so far from the one posted from Mark, and this is another time that we CAN'T judge with only one reference.

Some interesting points:
1) also this one I post here have some significant hesitant points;
2) the unit stamp is EXACTLY the same of the one in my document. Another point in support of the originality.

I'm not convinced that the first I show is a fake. Until today I've seen some Simon signatures and no one match except for some points.

Please, if someone has one in collection, this is the moment to show it for this thread!

[mufasa]

As I wrote above, is a very interesting discussion ... Here I found the entire document and another for a comparison ...


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=531819

[MarcRikmenspoel]

I'm home again, and checked the book Im gleichen Schritt und Tritt. This document appears on pages 432-433. Word for word, it is the same. The formatting is 98% the same. But it isn't 100% the same, which is probably a problem.

The GEHEIM stamp at the top is positioned very slightly differently. The top word, "Abschrift" doesn't appear on the version in this thread. On the second page, the table for killed, wounded and missing includes the full words "Führer," "Unterführer," and "Männer" instead of just a quotation mark as on the posted version. Finally, Simon didn't sign the one in the book, his name is merely typed. The signature is by Divisional IIa Kurt Mayr, who is swearing to the accuracy of the contents ("F.d.R.d.A.:").

Also, the version in the book several incidents of handwritten notations, two "x" checkmarks, an underlined word, and a dot added where it was left off of the "II" in "II /SS-Pz.Gren.Reg.35..." near the top of the second page.

My assumption is that there wouldn't be two slightly different versions of this document typed up by the clerks in the divisional HQ. Am I wrong about this? I hope I am, but it looks as if someone with access to the book retyped the document, and added a "Simon" signature to make it seem more valuable.

[Lionel H.]

Hi Gentlemen. Here is mine, extracted from a Group from a SS-Oscha in SS-A.R.17, direct from Family. A genuine one, somewhat later....<p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/4/1/41mgWbcpT08J134357826243P1683.jpg"></p> <p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/k/E/kEsGrKZoiT3y134357827878P1683.jpg"></p>