opinions on Panzergrenadier-Division Großdeutschland doc group please

[Baldur]

Whats your opinions on this group?

I think all is ok, but need the experts opinions, please.

1. Iron Cross 2
at this time it was the Infanterie-Division Großdeutschland
Heeresgruppe Mitte / 9. Armee / 13. Armeekorps in the area of Rshew
original signature Divisions commander
Generalmajor Walter Hörnlein
(at this time Knightcross holder)

2. Iron Cross 1
at this time it was the Panzer-Grenadier-Division Großdeutschland
Heeresgruppe Süd / 4. Panzerarmee / 48. Armeekorps in the area of Achtyrka, Obojan
original signature same Divisions commander
Generalleutnant Walter Hörnlein
(at this time oakleaves holder)

both Iron Crosses won as Gefreiter

3. Wound Badge
as member of
Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung Großdeutschland

4. owners photo


<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_01.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_02.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_03.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_04.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_05.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_06.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_07.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_08.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_09.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_10.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_11.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_12.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

<br><br><center><img src='http://imagehost.epier.com/139858/GD_Nachlass_vor_13.jpg'><br><br><br></center>

[Simon O.]

The docs look good to me but i don't think the photo belongs to the group. He got his EKII in the middle of winter whilst a gefreiter and the photo was taken in spring or autumn and shows two obergefreiter.

[hucks216]

The docs are fine, the two EK citations bear the usual Walter Hoernlein signatures. With the photo the part that supposedly identifies the soldier looks to of been added some time after the rest of the writing in an attempt to make it fit in with the citations. Still, nice little set though.

[Baldur]

Thank you.

The problem is I sold this group. First the buyer was satisfied, but after some time he wrote that these docs are totaly fakes and he gives these reasons:

1- the date in the wervundetenabzeichen in schwartz certificate should be DEZEMBER and never DZBR, or just DZB for DEZEMBER.

2- in the EK1 certuficate, the correct write is Infanterie-Division and NEVER Jnfanterie Division...the J was for the WW1 certificate and never see in WW2 certificate.

3- in the EK1 certuficate, the correct write is STABS-BTTR and not STABSBTTR.

4- in the EK1 certuficate, the correct write is: STABS-BTTR.II/ART.RGT.GROSSDEUTSCHLAND and NEVER STABS.BTTR.II/ARTL.RGT.GROSSDEUTSCHLAND

5- in the EK1 certuficate, the correct write is: STABS-BTTR.II./PZ.ART.RGT.GROOSDEUTSCHLAND and NEVER STABS-BTTR.II./PZ.ARTILLERIE .RGT.GROOSDEUTSCHLAND

6- the sign in the certificates EK2 and EK1 are differents so it is the same person who signed !

7- the EK2 and EK1 signs are differents for the picture signed post war for the same person.



or ???

[Simon O.]

2- in the EK1 certuficate, the correct write is Infanterie-Division and NEVER Jnfanterie Division...the J was for the WW1 certificate and never see in WW2 certificate.

not true, J was often used especially during the early years.

points 1, 3,4 and 5. Abbreviation and punctuation variations are plentiful and varied.

[davycroquet1944]

for Baldur

Hello
i send you 4 emails, you never answer me !!!!!!!!
What are you play for ????

Hi....

1- the date in the wervundetenabzeichen in schwartz certificate should be DEZEMBER and never DZBR, or just DZB for DEZEMBER.

2- in the EK1 certuficate, the correct write is Infanterie-Division and NEVER Jnfanterie Division...the J was for the WW1 certificate and never see in WW2 certificate.

3- in the EK1 certuficate, the correct write is STABS-BTTR and not STABSBTTR.

4- in the EK1 certuficate, the correct write is: STABS-BTTR.II/ART.RGT.GROSSDEUTSCHLAND and NEVER STABS.BTTR.II/ARTL.RGT.GROSSDEUTSCHLAND

5- in the EK1 certuficate, the correct write is: STABS-BTTR.II./PZ.ART.RGT.GROOSDEUTSCHLAND and NEVER STABS-BTTR.II./PZ.ARTILLERIE .RGT.GROOSDEUTSCHLAND

6- the sign in the certificates EK2 and EK1 are differents so it is the same person who signed !

7- the EK2 and EK1 signs are differents for the picture signed post war for the same person.

I'm waiting quickly for your answer.
Olivier

[davycroquet1944]

For Baldur

The high quality grouping but so fake..........come from Germany !!!!!
The same that the grouping i bought you.....

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ocuments+group

BALDUR THANKS TO ANSWER ME QUICKLY.......
YOU ARE NOT A CORRECT MAN, YOU DON'T ANSWER ME DESPITE 3 EMAILS......
THIEF OR TWISTER ??????

Why you don't answer me?
I writte you that i will send you the grouping and you will return me the money.
If you are a correct man, no problem for you.....

What person do you are ??

[hucks216]

There is nothing wrong with the citations. I collect GD paperwork and I have at least one EK citation in a large grouping that is dated Dezember '42 and has Infanterie typed as Jnfanterie. I'm at work at the moment so don't have access to my files but when I get home this afternoon I will post it here - unless Simon can pop over to the GCA Forum beforehand and save the image of the EK citation in the GD IAB Bronze thread and repost it here on my behalf.

The EK citation is the one seen in Post #12 of this thread...
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=213409

[Simon O.]

Here's the doc Hucks is talking about.

[Brian R]

The EK documents are 100% original.

[davycroquet1944]

I'm very surprise to see same certificates with same sign and the same writing in the typewriter....!!!!!!!!!!

[davycroquet1944]

sorry it's better like this..........

I'm very surprise to see same certificates with same sign and the same writing in the same typewriter....!!!!!!!!!!

[hucks216]

sorry it's better like this..........

I'm very surprise to see same certificates with same sign and the same writing in the same typewriter....!!!!!!!!!!

They were issued just 5 days apart so the chances are that they were typed out on the same typewriter.

Thanks Simon, that is the one.

Here are some images that show other examples. The first two are to show the same stamp on a Silver Wound Badge citation issued in July 1942 and an EK I issued in July 1943...





And the following images are for a very early GD-related paperwork. The third image shown here is a close-up of a portion of the reverse. All the pieces from my collection come from different groupings...

[hucks216]

And it wasn't just Großdeutschland. Here are samples of other EK/KvK citations in my collection spanning 1941 to 1945 - look how the word 'Infanterie' (or the abbreviation) is written under the signatures...

[davycroquet1944]

Can you explain me the difference between the sign certificate and the post war picture sign??
How do you explain this difference?
So i hope that the général is the same person between 1942 and the 50th years !!