SS Ausweis on e-stand

[max history]

Can I ask for opinions on this SS Ausweis currently on e-stand please?
I have my own opinion, but I would be interested in what others think.
Regards,
Max.

See http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=589891

[JUNGCO]

One of the new fakes on the market.
Jeff

[max history]

Based upon my observations, here are some points that I believe require discussion:
1) 5/83 was not part of SS-Abschnitt VI. They were on opposite sides of Germany;
2) Why is there no Abschnitt Führer signature?
3) Why is there no holder's signature?
4) The pristine condition.
5) In my opinion the printed example of Himmler's signature is based on a known forgery.
6) The portrait photo has the appearance of a repro.
7) The metal ring rivets appear to be the same as those used on known fake examples from eastern Europe/Russia.
Discussion may well resolve some of the anomolies I have identified. All comments welcome.
Max.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

there is no "3D stamp" in the document, no signature of the local chief, so this seemed to be a fake.

See You

Vince

[InMyScopeOIF]

My Opinion

We all know and can be in agreement that these ID Cards were never consitant and varied from division to division, assignment to assignment. I have another card that has the missing information that is pointed on this ID Card and it has been approved as authentic or as authentic as one can be with SS Documents and ID Cards. We also know that these were never, or should I say rarely carried by the soldier and were, in fact, with their personnel file in most cases at the division or regiment level.
The abscence of the Abschnitt Fuher sig is not a big deal. The ID cards were frequently stamped and catologed without the soldiers sig and the Abschnitt Fuher. I have seen plenty of in-complete or wrong dates, wrong SS #'s...these things happen. It wasnt a perfect system and the SS paperwork system was the largest beaurocracy in the entire Third Reich. Like I said, the other ID Card I have is from 1938 and has all if it's information and the only thing I can think of is that these are simply clerical errors. The card itself is not in "prestine" condition, I would say Mint because after 60 years comparitively to other ID Cards and documents, this card is in above average state.
I have examined the Hitler Stamped Signature against known authentic and approved stamping or autopen and the conclusion was that the Himmler stamp on this ID Card was and is consistant with, like I said, approved matches.
Maybe its how I scanned the ID Card that its appearance may be off because of that, but the photo is not a repro. When you are holding the ID Card you can tell that the photo is a period photograph of that time. The Riveting I have heard prior discussion on other documents, but there has been no definitive determination as to "this is later day reproduction riveting, or "this is in fact riveting consistant with the period". In my opinion looking at the riveting you can tell that the aging is consistant and appears to be authentic. You can clearly see by the placement of the photo and looking through the rivets, on one you can clearly see the back side of the photo when examined by UV lighting, is consitant with correct photo paper and then on the other rivet the back side of the adhered stamp is also clearly visible and is clearly detectable as authentic.
When I first acquired this piece along with the other ID Card, I did my research on the 5/83 and found that in 1940, there was a shift of partial forces from 5/83 to other units and, in fact, the entire Waffen SS was in a re-distribution of assets and man power. I will post that information in another posting, as I did not think that would even be something that would be a topic for discussion.
Finally...I wasnt sure if this was a joke but there is no "3D" holographic Bank of America secret image on any of these ID Cards, and for that matter on ANY SS ID cards any where?

[Panzer Rob]

I have been collecting and studying SS-Ausweis for several years and I can say with absolute certainty that your "Ausweis" is -- without question -- 100% FAKE. It's a forgery. It was made by the same individual who has made many of the almost identical Ausweis that are being sold on eBay and many other various militaria auction sites; same (incorrect) color and pattern card, same (badly faked) validation stamp on the reverse, same lack of embossed circular stamp, same edging on the portrait photo, same badly faked circular unit stamp, same exact rivets, same typewriter used, same consistent lack of signatures, etc. Compare it side by side with an original and the difference is like night and day.

It's a forgery. Can you tell us from whom you purchased this "ID?" Who's the "very well known collector" that once owned it?

Did you get the other SS ID you mention from the same source? You should probably post it to make sure it too isn't bad.

We all know and can be in agreement that these ID Cards were never consitant and varied from division to division, assignment to assignment. I have another card that has the missing information that is pointed on this ID Card and it has been approved as authentic or as authentic as one can be with SS Documents and ID Cards. We also know that these were never, or should I say rarely carried by the soldier and were, in fact, with their personnel file in most cases at the division or regiment level.
The abscence of the Abschnitt Fuher sig is not a big deal. The ID cards were frequently stamped and catologed without the soldiers sig and the Abschnitt Fuher. I have seen plenty of in-complete or wrong dates, wrong SS #'s...these things happen. It wasnt a perfect system and the SS paperwork system was the largest beaurocracy in the entire Third Reich. Like I said, the other ID Card I have is from 1938 and has all if it's information and the only thing I can think of is that these are simply clerical errors. The card itself is not in "prestine" condition, I would say Mint because after 60 years comparitively to other ID Cards and documents, this card is in above average state.
I have examined the Hitler Stamped Signature against known authentic and approved stamping or autopen and the conclusion was that the Himmler stamp on this ID Card was and is consistant with, like I said, approved matches.
Maybe its how I scanned the ID Card that its appearance may be off because of that, but the photo is not a repro. When you are holding the ID Card you can tell that the photo is a period photograph of that time. The Riveting I have heard prior discussion on other documents, but there has been no definitive determination as to "this is later day reproduction riveting, or "this is in fact riveting consistant with the period". In my opinion looking at the riveting you can tell that the aging is consistant and appears to be authentic. You can clearly see by the placement of the photo and looking through the rivets, on one you can clearly see the back side of the photo when examined by UV lighting, is consitant with correct photo paper and then on the other rivet the back side of the adhered stamp is also clearly visible and is clearly detectable as authentic.
When I first acquired this piece along with the other ID Card, I did my research on the 5/83 and found that in 1940, there was a shift of partial forces from 5/83 to other units and, in fact, the entire Waffen SS was in a re-distribution of assets and man power. I will post that information in another posting, as I did not think that would even be something that would be a topic for discussion.
Finally...I wasnt sure if this was a joke but there is no "3D" holographic Bank of America secret image on any of these ID Cards, and for that matter on ANY SS ID cards any where?

[Panzer Rob]

This same fake ID is also being discussed here:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=589939

[InMyScopeOIF]

Well It obviously hurts to hear this....

I don't know what to say. I certainly thought that I put my own fair examination of the ID Card as I have stated. I am a little shocked as I purchased this almost 10 years ago...about 8 1/5 years ago and I purchased this and another one from a well known collector, I am hesitant to divuldge his name not to further some mystery or conspiracy but I simply cannot believe that a person of his caliber could be duped and then pass that along to me. You say that when you put this ID Card, the one I have posted up next to a "real" SS ID Card, the differences are night and day, can someone please post this real SS ID Card because the ones that I have seen that have been represented to be authentic DO look simialar to mine. They looked enough alike for me to purchase them. I would never propigate a fake and perhaps I tied too much emotion to this kind of scrutiny being attached to something that I would be selling but its hard not to I guess. To be told that something you have had your hands on for so long and again given by a very respectable member of the collection world....it just all seems so terrible.
I guess Im in a little bit of shock.....I would like to see a comparison of what YOU would consider to be a authentic version of this kind of ID, so we can all make our own determinations, not that I am in anyway doubting your assesement and in light of this, I am removing this from the e-stand until this can be taken to a conclusive fact. Thank you

[Panzer Rob]

I don't know what to say. I certainly thought that I put my own fair examination of the ID Card as I have stated. I am a little shocked as I purchased this almost 10 years ago...about 8 1/5 years ago and I purchased this and another one from a well known collector, I am hesitant to divuldge his name not to further some mystery or conspiracy but I simply cannot believe that a person of his caliber could be duped and then pass that along to me. You say that when you put this ID Card, the one I have posted up next to a "real" SS ID Card, the differences are night and day, can someone please post this real SS ID Card because the ones that I have seen that have been represented to be authentic DO look simialar to mine. They looked enough alike for me to purchase them. I would never propigate a fake and perhaps I tied too much emotion to this kind of scrutiny being attached to something that I would be selling but its hard not to I guess. To be told that something you have had your hands on for so long and again given by a very respectable member of the collection world....it just all seems so terrible.
I guess Im in a little bit of shock.....I would like to see a comparison of what YOU would consider to be a authentic version of this kind of ID, so we can all make our own determinations, not that I am in anyway doubting your assesement and in light of this, I am removing this from the e-stand until this can be taken to a conclusive fact. Thank you

I won't go into great detail as I don't want to assist any would-be fakers following this thread, but one of the most obvious giveaways is the card itself; not only is it missing the embossed stamp, but the eagle in the watermark pattern is completely wrong. Notice that it's exactly the same as the eagle on the validation stamp on the reverse.

[InMyScopeOIF]

Isnt this a bit over the top?

"would be fakers that might come along and read this post" ?? Are you kidding? Isnt this a little too conspiracy out to get you type thinking?? Yes, there is an element out there who forge and fake documents and yes there is a big push lately to forge SS Documents and other SS Paperwork. I just don't think that in this case you are right.
We all have our opinions. I have seen your representation of I guess what you have in your collection as "authentic" and "genuine" SS Ausweis? I see things in your ID card that are some what questionable...you have a lot of areas blured I guess to keep the forgery committee at bay....but I have removed my ID cards until I can get the second one out of lock up and see if its the same or different and I also am going to be speaking with the son of the collector that carried on his fathers collection when he died that I orginally got these from. Hey I will be the first to come back on here after I have done my homework and say YES its a fake I agree, put it in the fake box for reference and thats that....but first Im going to do my do diligence and whatever else supporting material you have, I would be more then happy to see them. Better yet, why dont you send me your un-blurred SS Ausweis document to my personal email address and then I can do a better side by side comparison. Is it likely the SS changed the paper of these ID Cards? I notice your date is 1938. Could that be or is that a ridiculous thing to happen?

email = InmyscopeOIF2005@aol.com

Thanks!

[Simon O.]

What are your responses to the 7 points Max made, in particular point 1?


And a question from me. I understand that in 1941 the Führer of SS-Abschnitt VI was Fritz Katzmann. Quite apart from the lack of signature i believe he was an Oberführer in March 41, then promoted to Brigadeführer in june

[max history]

"would be fakers that might come along and read this post" ?? Are you kidding? Isnt this a little too conspiracy out to get you type thinking?? Yes, there is an element out there who forge and fake documents and yes there is a big push lately to forge SS Documents and other SS Paperwork. I just don't think that in this case you are right.
We all have our opinions. I have seen your representation of I guess what you have in your collection as "authentic" and "genuine" SS Ausweis? I see things in your ID card that are some what questionable...you have a lot of areas blured I guess to keep the forgery committee at bay....but I have removed my ID cards until I can get the second one out of lock up and see if its the same or different and I also am going to be speaking with the son of the collector that carried on his fathers collection when he died that I orginally got these from. Hey I will be the first to come back on here after I have done my homework and say YES its a fake I agree, put it in the fake box for reference and thats that....but first Im going to do my do diligence and whatever else supporting material you have, I would be more then happy to see them. Better yet, why dont you send me your un-blurred SS Ausweis document to my personal email address and then I can do a better side by side comparison. Is it likely the SS changed the paper of these ID Cards? I notice your date is 1938. Could that be or is that a ridiculous thing to happen?

email = InmyscopeOIF2005@aol.com

Thanks!

Why aren't you polite like this in your PMs instead of being insulting? I sent you a PM advising you I had offered your Ausweis for discussion out of pure courtesy and all I got was a torrent of abuse and excuses.
Please answer the question Simon has asked regarding my 7 points.
Max.

[Eric JB]

InMywhatever, still strange talking to user/nick-names.

I am with Max, JUNGCO, Vince and Rob.

Of course you can make a joke on Vince's reply where he mentions a 3D Stamp, clear for all is that what he means is the raised relief imprint stamp one can see in the middle of the original SS-Ausweis as shown by Rob.

Also the blue Beglaubigungsmarke on your card seems to be a fake re-print from what I can see from your image.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan

[Panzer Rob]

"would be fakers that might come along and read this post" ?? Are you kidding? Isnt this a little too conspiracy out to get you type thinking?? Yes, there is an element out there who forge and fake documents and yes there is a big push lately to forge SS Documents and other SS Paperwork. I just don't think that in this case you are right. We all have our opinions. I have seen your representation of I guess what you have in your collection as "authentic" and "genuine" SS Ausweis? I see things in your ID card that are some what questionable...you have a lot of areas blured I guess to keep the forgery committee at bay....but I have removed my ID cards until I can get the second one out of lock up and see if its the same or different and I also am going to be speaking with the son of the collector that carried on his fathers collection when he died that I orginally got these from. Hey I will be the first to come back on here after I have done my homework and say YES its a fake I agree, put it in the fake box for reference and thats that....but first Im going to do my do diligence and whatever else supporting material you have, I would be more then happy to see them. Better yet, why dont you send me your un-blurred SS Ausweis document to my personal email address and then I can do a better side by side comparison. Is it likely the SS changed the paper of these ID Cards? I notice your date is 1938. Could that be or is that a ridiculous thing to happen?

email = InmyscopeOIF2005@aol.com

Thanks!

You are more than entitled to your opinion, but the simple fact here is that the "Ausweis" you posted is 100% fake. No amount of theorizing, comparing or explaining will change this, and your reluctance to listen to and accept the opinions of experienced Ausweis/ID collectors doesn't make me too inclined to continue to contribute to this discussion.

You can believe whatever you want, but your "Ausweis" is a known fake. I have spent many years and tens of thousands of dollars collecting and studying these types of SS IDs. I have handled and inspected hundreds, have about 50 in my personal collection ranging in rank from SS-Anwärter to SS General and I keep a running archive of all known surviving examples. None, that is ZERO, exhibit the traits and details being pointed out to you in your ID which clearly identify it as a forgery. Actually, the only pieces that do have these traits are the identical fake examples littering eBay, the occasional dealer site and practically all online militaria auction sites.

The most obvious indicator that yours is fake is the watermark pattern; the eagle is totally wrong and only appears on modern forgeries. It's the same eagle that is used on the fake validations stamps. Yours is a "ground-up" forgery, meaning that the entire card was created from scratch - watermark pattern and all - as opposed to a forgery that was created starting with an original, blank (unused) Ausweis card.

Speak with 'any' experienced ID collector and they will all tell you the exact same thing. Your "Ausweis" is a fake.

....but first Im going to do my do diligence and whatever else supporting material you have, I would be more then happy to see them. Better yet, why dont you send me your un-blurred SS Ausweis document to my personal email address and then I can do a better side by side comparison. Is it likely the SS changed the paper of these ID Cards? I notice your date is 1938. Could that be or is that a ridiculous thing to happen?

Yes, the style, fonts, colors etc. of these IDs changed over the years and through much research I have been able to identify around when these changes took place, where the overlap is and have documented examples of where an older card was used much later; this is just some of the info I've collected through many years of studying, researching and sharing IDs with other ID collectors - info that would greatly assist fakers in improving their fakes. I am not going to just doll out years of research on a public forum where everyone knows fakers are getting their info from and using our posts to help improve their creations.

To answer your question, No. There's no "conspiracy" here - just good old common sense at work. You don't post/discuss information where you know the bad guys are going to gather it and use it against you.

Furthermore, I'm not going to just start emailing you images of my private collection. Have you ever heard of asking someone nicely for something? Using the word "please" perhaps? You're basically telling me to start sending you scans of my IDs, IDs you apparently have little to no experience with, yet you can say there are "things" that are "some what questionable" on the example I posted (which by the way is a 100% "textbook" original SS-Ausweis) ?? I posted this very Ausweis from my collection because this is the exact version your forgery is attempting to be. At least now you know what an original of this kind should look like.

Your "Ausweis" is a complete forgery. Try to get your money back if you can. If not, destroy it or put a big line across the front in black or red sharpie and throw it in your fake box and chalk it up as a lesson learned.

I'm done with this thread.

[max history]

Well said Rob. Your points are direct and to the point. I don't know why, but I was trying to retain politeness and be diplomatic to this guy. All I got in return via PMs was rudeness and immature excuses such as "this thread was tainted from the start by you giving your opinion." In fact I still have not passed my opinion on his Ausweis, but there again I don't think I need to. It's all been said.
Max.