LSSAH document grouping for review

[Oberbootsmann]

I have to admit that "Kuratorium" and "frankandfrank" are absolutely right. While having a closer look on the better scans it was clear that the group is a total fake. Well done but not well enough.

In the end the crucial factor was the following:

The sellers friend from the same town who I know from the Militaria Fundforum and who was kind enough to help the seller with the negotiations has offered me just a couple of days later the group shown below in this posting. Also a bad fake ...
Perhaps another well known member from the WAF who also made contact with the seller from the other group can say something.

Isn't that a big coincidence? Two killer document groups with two absolutely identical documents for TDB and GAB 25 which were offered at the same town at the same time from two persons who know each other very well? Even the pictures of the two different groups were taken from the same camera model within a couple of days!!!

I have the seller informed to retreat from the contract.

Regards

[frankandfrank]

From the making comes these fakes from germany.at the moment a lot of forgeries on the market and auctions houses.the fakers are stupid and the sellers criminal.

[Oberbootsmann]

From the making comes these fakes from germany.at the moment a lot of forgeries on the market and auctions houses.the fakers are stupid and the sellers criminal.

Exactly.

And you know what? I've had enough time to think today and I reached the conclusion to give up collecting military items and in particular LSSAH and SS TK documents.
If I didn't see the 2nd document group I would have sticked to the LSSAH group.

Forgeries are getting better and better and with this LSSAH group the forgerers fooled many well known collectors here at the WAF.

At least the seller will repay me.

Thanks for all your comments - especially the ones who had their doubts right from the beginning.

Regards

[markus]

Very interesting!

Now, what are the reasons the posted docs are fake?
Is there an explanation to it?

Cheers,
Markus

[Oberbootsmann]

Very interesting!

Now, what are the reasons the posted docs are fake?
Is there an explanation to it?

Cheers,
Markus

Hi Markus. I've tried to explain it in posting #48. Together with the illustrations of "Kuratorium" IMO it is absolutely clear.
When have you seen the last time a TDB form or a GAB "25" form like those ones? Me never ...
And then all of a sudden two groups which contain not just one but both award documents? From the same German village? From sellers who are friends?
I assure you with better and closer scans from the second group you could make out the same type writer as well.

I hope the two sellers had been fooled as well with those documents and are not the ones responsable for the forging.

Regards

[Edward]

Sorry to see this happen Oberbootsman. Good to read though that the seller will give you a refund. In this particular case the number of hands these similar documents passed between (forger and seller) are probably not that many (same village, same friends...).

[markus]

I just sat down here this afternoon and had a very detailed look at the documents and I must say, that I come also to the conclusion now, that most (not all) of the docs are most likely fakes.

I apologize for not having take then necessary time and resources to check these before and come to this conclusion before.

My apologies. It's still a great collection field.

Matthias, don't let this get you down. You see we can all fail, but through sufficient research one can still get good results. There's tons of good LAH and Totenkopf material out there.

Patience and also important: Know where you buy your stuff from. Militaria-Fundforum, etc. are certainly not the places.

From own experience I can say, that 90% of my stuff during the past 2-3 years came from very trusted sources and basically
from the vets and families directly. See "Mohnke", "Gilbert", "Dietrich" etc.

Cheers,
Markus

PD: @ Matthias, I will still send you a seperate PM on what I saw, just don't have the time now.

[Panzer Rob]

Perhaps another well known member from the WAF who also made contact with the seller from the other group can say something.

I am the collector Matthias is referring to.

When I first saw this LSSAH grouping I was not very keen on it and questioned the authenticity of several of the documents. A few days ago I was offered a Soldbuch and award document grouping to a soldier who served in schwere-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 88 and which came out of the same collection as this LSSAH grouping. Upon receiving scans of the Panzerjäger grouping - which contains the two documents posted above by Matthias - my thoughts and opinion on the LSSAH grouping were confirmed and, needless to say, I passed on the Panzerjäger grouping.

Rob

[Oberbootsmann]

I would like to add to this thread that I have just finished a conversation with one of the sellers.
Finally he convinced me that neither him nor the other one had any fraudulent intent.
It was - let's say it so - the perfect storm.

Regards

[Panzer Rob]

I would like to add to this thread that I have just finished a conversation with one of the sellers.
Finally he convinced me that neither him nor the other one had any fraudulent intent.
It was - let's say it so - the perfect storm.

Regards

I certainly did not get the impression that there was any ill intentions or dishonesty, either. I feel the individual I corresponded with was under the impression that the grouping he offered me was 100% legitimate and original.

Rob

[SJP]

Here ( click! ) you can see another, 100% original citation from 5.5.1944 with Teddy Wisch sign. Please note the different ink color and also the IMHO different round stamps ( for example letters "f" and "H")...

Thanks K for posting this. Lessons learned for sure.
__________________________________________
Cheers Steve

[markus]

Same from here.

Thanks for "swimming" against the current and open our eyes with facts.

There's more observations from my side I just sent Matthias via PM.


Even though personally I was kind of shocked at first, I can clearly see the fake-issues now, which makes it less of a scare really.

These fakes are still "easy" to spot, but they are getting better and better
for sure....!

[Rene Chavez]

Wow lessons learn it just goes to show you that you have to be extra careful when dealing with anything that is collectible.

Rene Chavez
www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com

[HouweTrouwe]

Thanks Steve and Markus. I've tried to bring all Wisch and Meyer signatures together on one picture. Makes comparing easier.

Regards

The Meyer signature(s) shown do not match with any of the signatures I have from Meyer.

Thanks for showing this, good for sig. reference use.

[markus]

The Meyer signature(s) shown do not match with any of the signatures I have from Meyer.

Thanks for showing this, good for sig. reference use.

Thanks Bart. Are the signatures you compared these with pre-war?
Wartime are different. Remember that Sepp Dietrich for instance signed
with not less than 5 styles from the 30ies to 1945 and continued to
change his signature into the postwar years.