SS 4 year medal award Document to RK winner Hermann Dahlke, 1st LSSAH

[tmca05]

SS 4 year medal award Document to RK winner Hermann Dahlke, 1st LSSAH

I am looking for some feedback on this document of which I picked it up from the estate of former collector Charlie Suggs. Charlie’s notes show that he bought it in 2005 for $1,000, which is the same time frame that much of Hermann Dahlke stuff was sold off.

I’ve shown it to several document collectors and they like the paper, but they are unsure if it was a leftover blank that was filed in later by someone.

SS Untersturmfuhrer Hermann Dahlke was in the 1st SS panzer Division Leibstandarte “Adolf Hitler”. He was awarded the Knights Cross on 3 March 1943 and was later killed in Action on 5 July 1943.

From what I can tell, his medals and awards were sold by the family in 2004.


Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[tmca05]

a

[markus]

I see that nobody has relied yet, so I'll be the first one
to say that personally I do not like what I see (on my
Blackberry screen)

Others?

[markus]

Now that I see it on the screen of my laptop I can confirm that I do not like this document for various reasons, which I do not want to mention publically.

Btw, what did the Dalhke group contain in paper documents? Does anyone know more?

Cheers,
Markus

[MarcRikmenspoel]

Dahlke's file has plenty of material on his career. He joined the LAH at 17 in 1934, and did a 4-year stint. He then rejoined as a reservist in 1939 with the outbreak of the war. It is noted in his file that 1943 marks his 8th year of service. So, why would he receive a document in 1943 for 4 years of service?

[Michael73]

it was a leftover blank that was filed in later by someone

Exactly!

[HouweTrouwe]

Dahlke's file has plenty of material on his career. He joined the LAH at 17 in 1934, and did a 4-year stint. He then rejoined as a reservist in 1939 with the outbreak of the war. It is noted in his file that 1943 marks his 8th year of service. So, why would he receive a document in 1943 for 4 years of service?

My files are incorrect or otherwise correct but didn't Stubaf. Arnold Jürgensen recieve both his 3. u. 4. Stufe in 1941?

[markus]

Note that this doc is for 4 years faithful service in the 'SS-JUNKERSCHULEN (!)'

[tmca05]

Markus, I see your point, it appears this is not an SS 4 year service medal, but a 4 year service to the Junkerschulen, or 4th class award from the SS school.

I am still leaning to the fact that someone added him to a blank document, but does anyone know if he ever attended the Junkerschulen ?

[tmca05]

a

[tmca05]

Updated info

An interesting update via email from Tom, Thanks Tom for your imput

David,

Thanks for sending me the photos. As far as the document goes, I like what I see so far.
Was it a blank that was filed in later? I can not say for sure either way, but I can tell you this, it is for the 4 Year SS Service medal and not 4 years service in the Junkerschulen ( SS officer candidate school). It was merely issued by the school at a time of which he may have been attending. Obtaining a copy of his records would verify this fact.
I have seen many SS 4, 8 and 12 year service documents that were issued by the local units of assignment. If you look at page 246 of Forman’s Guide to Third Reich German Documents, you will see a document just like yours from the Junkerschulen issued for 12 years service. Now I doubt anyone served 12 years at the school itself, in fact I doubt anyone spent 4 years at the school, unless they were unfit for duty else ware. The simple fact is, that when a person was authorized the medal, the school awarded it to them at that time, on their own letterhead, or forms.
Now the question is, was Lt. Hermann Dahlke at the Junkerschulen around March 11, 1943 and did he qualify for a 4 year SS service medal. The answer may be yes, on both accounts.
Dahlke joined the Hitler Youth in 1933 at about age 16, later he joined the Volunteer Labor service and then the SS. If one was to assume he spent 3 years in the HJ and then 3 in the Labor Service, very typical progression at the time. this would put him in the SS about age 22 in 1939 and thus eligible for a 4 year service medal in 1943. My understanding is that his HJ and labor service would not count towards a 8 year medal that you questioned me about, a 4 year would be most appropriate.
Next is the issue of the SS Officer Candidate School. His records would settle this question very easy, if you could obtain a copy of them. Here are some known facts from Wikipedia:
He was awarded the Knights Cross on 3 March, 1943 as a Oberscharfuhrer (Staff-Sergeant), He died on 5 July 1943 as an officer Unterstrumfuher ( 2nd Lieutenant). He was commissioned, and most likely via an officer candidate between those dates, and this is were your document falls (March 11, 1943).
If I was to bet on the time frame, I’d say that he was sent home to be awarded the RK on 3 March 1943 and sent straight to the SS Junkerschulen for training and promotion to Lieutenant, a practice that was very common with RK recipients.
Good luck with it, and see if you can find more on his service records.

Tom

[markus]

Interesting. I wouldn't exclude the possibility that the JS used
this kind of doc for personnel other than their own staff.

I don't have Dalke's personnel file. Maybe others can help?

Personally, I have not come across a SS faithful service doc
issued later than 1940. I find the way this one is made out odd.

I don't know what to think of the detail that the term
'division' is not written with a capital 'D' as it should be...


Good or bad, I really can't tell. Others?

[leib1]

Dahlke
took temporary command of 3/SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt.1 on 15.2.43
He was then promoted to SS-Untersturmfuhrer on 6.3.43 and given command of the 3/SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt.1
source Dietrichs Warriors Peter Mooney
So he was not at a junkerschule 11.3.43 if book is correct
Best Jamie

[leib1]

Dahlke's first servivce with the LAH
30.7.34-31.10.38
before rejoining in 15.8.39
He also had the 4 and 8 year service medal
Best Jamie

[J C Gray]

Markus, I see your point, it appears this is not an SS 4 year service medal, but a 4 year service to the Junkerschulen, or 4th class award from the SS school.

It is a certificate for a 4 year SS-Service Award. As well as the Junkerschulen, these docs were issued for SSVT & SSTV and were printed as such ie. three different types for each grade of the award. Unfortunately, this one is a common fake and not a leftover blank. The biggest red flag with these is the presence of the 'Meissner' signature, which should not appear on this type of document; the first awarded SS medal was authorized & signed by Hitler alone, whereas each subsequent grade of the award was authorized & signed by Meissner alone. These subsequent certificates, however, were of a slightly different form with different wording.