LGAB document help

[schwerer Werfer]

Hi

What do you think about this doc?

many regards

Erwin

[Hank C.]

Kinda fuzzy, but appears okay to me.

Hank

[schwerer Werfer]

Hi Hank,

thanks a lot for your help

many regards

Erwin

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello Erwin,

This multi-color document looks really nice. I've seen this exact style before and they look so much nicer than the typical award document. Amazing that they still had something like this to issue in April of 1945. Unusual too that it is only signed by an Abteilung Commander. (Maybe not so unusual for this late in the war, though.)

Can you please tell us what the Feldpostnummer is on the eagle ink stamp? I can't make it out from the photo.

Best regards,
Tom

[Simon O.]

That the doc is signed by the abteilung commander is perfectly normal, this is 'only' a qualification award.

I'd want to see the fp number, II./Flak Rgt.6 apparently became I./Flak Rgt.30 in june 1944, though that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad because of that.

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/flargt6.html

[Tom Yanacek]

That the doc is signed by the abteilung commander is perfectly normal, this is 'only' a qualification award.

I'd want to see the fp number, II./Flak Rgt.6 apparently became I./Flak Rgt.30 in june 1944, though that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad because of that.

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/flargt6.html

Hello Simon,

Are you saying that it is "perfectly normal" for April of 1945 or perfectly normal for the entire time period that the LGAB was awarded (1942-45)?
I do not see these as "only a qualification award" either. You had to participate in combat assaults that penetrated enemy lines and the regulations were pretty stringent too. IMO these are combat awards. To me, a qualification badge is something like a DRL Sports Badge or a Pilot/Paratroop Badge, that you received upon completion of flight/jump school. I do follow the logic of why you term the LGAB a qualification badge, though.

IMO, I still think it is unusual to see a Luftwaffe Ground Assault Badge signed by an Abteiling Commander. And, as a reference, I am looking at the the examples pictured in the document book by Adrian Forman. There are twenty signed documents for the Luftwaffe Ground Assault Badge pictured in the book. Of the twenty shown in the book, fifteen are signed by General-Grade Officers of at least divisional command; one is signed by an Oberst, but "as representative of" the divisional commander; two are signed by Obersten as regimental commanders (late awards); and, lastly, two are signed by Hauptleute, but in their capacity as divisional adjutants. So, if this sampling in the book is a true representation of LGAB documents as a whole, I think is a fair statement to say that it is unusual to see one signed by an Abteilung Commander. But as I said in my first post, maybe not so unusual for this late in the war.

The regulations for awarding of the Luftwaffe Ground Assault Badge state:

"For recognition of combat engagements which would qualify
for the receipt of the Luftwaffe Ground Combat Badge,
decision for award comes from the company commander,
battalion commander, regimental commander, or the next
higher authority."
"The award is issued through the appropriate division
commander as no subordinate authority under a division
commanding general exists. In questionable cases, the decision
is made by the Minister of Aviation and the C in C of the
Luftwaffe."

Maybe this all changed very late in the war to the point that Batallion/Abteilung Commanders began to issue these documents. Overall, I like this document but, to me, it is unusual. (And that does not necessarily mean a bad thing.)

Best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

Does anyone else have any concerns about the date on this document? I know that dates were sometimes stamped onto documents rather than being typed in. In fact, we see this a lot on Krim Shield documents. But why is there no stop after the number '8'? I would expect the date to read: 8. APRIL 1945. Without the stop after the '8' the date would be read as acht April, which is not at all proper. With the stop after the '8' the date would be read as achten April, which is correct. The Germans are real precise on how they structure their dates. Look at any other original document and check out the date, whether stamped or typed. Without fail, the stops will be there.

Also, below the line where the date is, the pre-printed text calls for both a location and date of the award. The location of this award is strangely absent. Look at other original documents and you will see that if the location is called for on the document, it gets put in. I would expect to see something there like: O.U., Gefechtsstand, Abt.Gef.Std., Ortsunterkunft, Berlin, etc. Maybe this can also be explained away by the very late award date.

I hope I'm not being needlessly critical about this document. I still like it in many ways but I just can't dismiss these concerns either. I would love to own an original document for the LGAB in this multi-color format. To really be sure about this particular example, though, I think I would have to examine it in-hand.

Best regards,
Tom

[schwerer Werfer]

Hi Tom and Simon

Thanks for your extremely interesting opinion about this doc

There are some open questions,like the stop after the eight,the location and the Feldpostnumber http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/flargt6.html

Unfortunately I haven`t better pics,but it comes one more with the watermark

See you

Erwin

[Simon O.]

This is about as good as i can get. it looks like 53*78 ?


Tom, i meant for this late in the war, though legitimate might have been a better shoice of words. I agree on the stamped date.

[Tom Yanacek]

This is about as good as i can get. it looks like 53*78 ?


Tom, i meant for this late in the war, though legitimate might have been a better shoice of words. I agree on the stamped date.

Hello Simon,

Yes! It looks like 53478 to me (or something very close to that). I've been playing around with the numbers, but no luck yet. Erwin is going to post some better scans when he gets the document. Hopefully, we will be able to tell then.

Best regards,
Tom

[schwerer Werfer]

Hi Guys,

I`ve got the doc now,...the stamp is with the FPNr 53989
playing with the number,and then I have found this:
Stab Fallschirm-Flak-Abteilung 5
period of use from the stamp 21.1.1944-21.5.1945

http://www.stampsx.com/ratgeber/stem...ernsuche=53989

Ok,now the next search: Stab Fallschirm-Flak-Abteilung 5

http://www.feldgrau.com/FsFlakAbt.htm#5

and

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/fallschirm/fsflakabt5.htm

This was the right way
I`ve made better pictures of the doc,with stamp and the watermark
best regards

Erwin

[schwerer Werfer]

pics

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello Erwin,

Thanks for posting the additional scans. Well, everything makes sense with that Feldpostnummer. It's hard to find fault with the document now, so I think I will keep my mouth shut and just say, congratulations!

Okay, I'm done remaining silent. It is truly a beautiful and what must be a very rare variation. But what is that at the lower right? Is that just more of the watermark? Can you make out what that says?

Best regards,
Tom

[schwerer Werfer]

Hi Tom

Thanks a lot
It`s my first LGAB doc in my collection and I`ve a great pleasure to got such a rare variation
The dark dot,right down on the picture,is only a transparency with a sticker
I have put the doc in the transparency,taped this on the window,to get see the watermark for the photo,......It`s my fault
Any ideas about the signature?
Can it be true,the signature is from the KC winner Christian Gellert?
http://www.das-ritterkreuz.de/index_...det&wert1=1707
He was Batterieführer I./FlakRgt 43 (mot.)
The department was set up in Vitebsk area, where the headquarters of the anti-aircraft regiment, six at the 18th Flak-Division was under. In January 1944 the department was under the rod of the Flak-Regiment 6 at the 10th Flak-Brigade and the 18th of March 1944 Flak-Division. The department was established in April 1944 to 78th light anti-aircraft division
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...ter/FR43-R.htm
Maybe he had must stay in the Flakregiment 6 till the 8.5.1945?
How to you feel about this not absurd theory?
Best regards
Erwin

[Hank C.]

I might be missing something, but you posted a link to flak rgt 43, here's flak rgt. 6 (which matches unit designation on the doc):

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...nter/FR6-R.htm

Also, Gellert was "only" an oberleutnant in mid '44 when he received the KC. While not impossible, might be hard for him to have achieved Major prior to end of the war.

A major Lamprecht was commander in the timeframe on the LdW link above....I could see this signature being that more so than "gellert" (due to the dipping below the signature line at end of sig, which an "h" would do).

best
Hank