Kriiegsmarine award docs...

[tystgaard]

2 docs. Well.. assumed no good, but I am not sure, soo would like some opinions

Thanks
Nicolai

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello Nicolai,

Actually, I think both are OK.

The U-boat document has the facsimile signature of Admiral Hans Georg von Friedeburg.

The Minesweeper document is signed by Konteradmiral Eberhard Wolfram.

Best regards,
Tom

[RichardT]

Nicolai, I'm personally not a fan of either document. Attached are some signatures for comparison.

Richard

[tystgaard]

Thanks

Thanks for the comments-

Richard.. that where some fine work... I see what you mean. They are very well done, and had a hard time believing these as fakes... But yes can see the signatures are a bit off.... Thanks

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello guys,

I still would not discount the possibility that both of these documents are good. Hopefully, some others will offer their opinions as well.

In looking, for instance, at the examples of Eberhard Wolfram's signature, posted by Richard, you will see that every one of his signatures looks different. This is to be expected as no one can sign their name exactly the same each time. People are not auto pen machines. How can you possibly claim that five signatures are original and then say the sixth is questionable?

Try signing your name on ten pieces of paper then hold them up to a bright light, two at a time on top of one other. Try to find one that is an exact match.

I'm certainly no handwriting expert, but all six signatures look like the work of the same hand IMO. Each one is a bit different, but the writing traits look the same and there are no radical differences I see that would exclude one from the others.

Maybe an in-hand examination of these documents would reveal that they are high-tech photocopies or such. But, from the posted pictures, I still think that they look good.

Best regards,
Tom

Nicolai: Are these from a dealer's website and could you provide a link?

[RichardT]

Tom, I don't dispute the fact that signatures change and that's why you must compare a number. In the case of the Wolfram signatures there are several distinctive features in 5 of those signatures which don't ocurr in Nicolai's example.

The documents may be good but I personally wouldn't spend my money on them.

Richard

[Brian R]

I have to agree with Tom here. I can't definitively judge the uboat doc because my books and such are currently in storage but I have no problem with that minesweeper document.

[Tom Yanacek]

Although certainly not conclusive to the authenticity of the U-boat document, I did find an OBtsMt. Willi Göbels listed as a crewman aboard U-168. He was born on November 19, 1918 and died on board U-168 when it was sunk in the Java Sea on October 6, 1944.

Best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

Found this interrogation report on five survivors from the U-168 and thought it pretty interesting:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-168INT.htm

[RichardT]

Nicolai, I think it comes down to the question of are you willing to pay the price to purchase the documents. We can debate the authenticity of signatures until the cows come home, another prime example are Prien signatures that are hotly debated. For what ever reason, you apparently doubted the auctenticity of the documents when you posted them. Sometimes your gut is the best answer, mind you sometimes it might be wrong.

Good Luck in whatever you decide.

Richard

[tystgaard]

Hi

Thanks for all the interesting replys. Actually I think I will go for them if I can get them ad a fair price... the seller offering them is regarding them as repro, but think they are differents then the other items he is selling... and my own thoughts is that they looks real... that why i posted them. If I get them I will make some more pics.

Thanks

[Tom Yanacek]

Thanks for all the interesting replys. Actually I think I will go for them if I can get them ad a fair price... the seller offering them is regarding them as repro, but think they are differents then the other items he is selling... and my own thoughts is that they looks real... that why i posted them. If I get them I will make some more pics.

Thanks

Hello Nicolai,

Well, if the seller regards them as repros, you should be able to get them for really cheap and therefore, I think, worth taking a chance on. They look promising in the photos so I would buy them too if the price was right. Once you have them in-hand, though, it should be much easier to tell with certainty whether they are original or not.

Best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

Found Willi Göbels in the Volksbund "burial" records:

Willi Göbels

Willi Göbels ist als gefallener Angehöriger der Marine namentlich entweder in dem U-Boot-Ehrenmal Möltenort bei Kiel an einer der Wandtafeln oder im Marineehrenmal in Laboe in einem dort ausliegenden Gedenkbuch verzeichnet. Nur in wenigen Einzelfällen konnten die Gebeine der auf See gefallenen Soldaten geborgen und auf einem Friedhof bestattet werden. In diesen Fällen ist der Name des Betreffenden mit Hinweis auf seine Grablage ebenfalls in unserer Datenbank erfasst.
Nähere Informationen zu diesem Friedhof erhalten sie hier.
Nachname:
Göbels
Vorname:
Willi
Dienstgrad:
Obermaat
Geburtsdatum:
1918
Todes-/Vermisstendatum:
06.10.1944

[Tom Yanacek]

and the translation to the above posting:

Willi Goebels

Willi Goebels is listed as a fallen member of the Navy by name, either in the U-Boat Memorial at Möltenort near Kiel, on one of the wall panels, or the Navy Memorial in Laboe, there being laid out in a memorial book. Only in a few cases are the bones of fallen soldiers at sea recovered and buried in a cemetery. In these cases, the name of the person concerned is, with regard to its grave situation, also included in our database.

For more information about this cemetery, click here.
Last Name:
Goebels
First Name:
Willi
Rank:
Leading Seaman
Date of Birth:
1918
Death- /Missing in Action Date:
10/06/1944

[tystgaard]

Thanks

Thanks

Great info:-)

I got the docs cheap... and when I receive them I will make some good pics...

The seller had other items that where repro... but these looked different... soo lets see, when they arrive

If no good no harm done