SS knight Cross also Estonia ID needed

[kass]

Yeah, sure.

They didn't.

[PBR]

They didn't.

Of course, Sweetheart.

It's well known that SS was just a puppet organization, nodoby followed the rules, in particular the ones concerning SS membership, anybody could wear whatever they liked, dressed like Xmas trees....do me a favor, just do a bit of homework about how serious the collar tabs subject was discussed and taken at the time, please.


I don't know if such soldiers were SS full members, to be honest I don't think so, but what I know for sure is that Himmler was used to "prompt obedience" even by very hard-core characters such as Mr.Dirlewanger, so if those Estonian used the SS-Brustabzeichen this is because somebody allowed them to do so.
This is the reason why, even if "no Estonian did care about Himmler", just very few of them wore the SS-Brustabzeichen.

[gnadenlose]

TK, a little respect towards the other opinions wouldn't hurt nobody. These runes on uniforms of Estonians have been discussed here before and and one thing I remember talked about was that some soldiers kept their runic tabs after being given the new ones (E and sword/arm with sword) just like fancy memorabilia, and cut them into the shape before stitching them on their uniforms. Pretty much the same category as the "Narwa" or "Estland" cufftitles which also were unofficial, still documented on photos and I haven't heard that these men had any kind of troubles because of these.

[kass]

Of course, Sweetheart.

It's well known that SS was just a puppet organization, nodoby followed the rules, in particular the ones concerning SS membership, anybody could wear whatever they liked, dressed like Xmas trees....do me a favor, just do a bit of homework about how serious the collar tabs subject was discussed and taken at the time, please.


I don't know if such soldiers were SS full members, to be honest I don't think so, but what I know for sure is that Himmler was used to "prompt obedience" even by very hard-core characters such as Mr.Dirlewanger, so if those Estonian used the SS-Brustabzeichen this is because somebody allowed them to do so.
This is the reason why, even if "no Estonian did care about Himmler", just very few of them wore the SS-Brustabzeichen.

T.K.
My homework and interest concerning the manifesto of SS membership etc. is is non-existent. I was just pointing it out from the amount of pictures that I have seen and personal memories of Estonian vet`s that they did not care quite often about regulations that Germans had.
Self-made, unofficial CT-s that mentioned above, collar tabs, hat badges etc. There`s a picture where one SS guy is wearing 1919- early 20-s Estonian Republic Army-s headquarter sleeve shield. All unofficial. One SS Btl. Narva vet told me that there were guys who made fake IAB-s and EK I-s out of aluminium in 1943 in the Debica training camp in Poland. Recruits (who did not have any awards or right to wear any) bought them from these guys and used them on their walking out uniforms when they went to town on a leave. He mentioned that these were used in a twilight not during a bright day. Yes quite often they may have looked like "Christmas trees".

Regards
K.

[Paul E]

Photographic evidence supports the statements made here about the wearing of runes by the Estonian SS soldiers so why the attitude ??

It is unlikely that they would be worn at Heidelager at the training grounds but the photos support the fact that the Estonian frontkampfer on the Narva Battlefields wore them and it doesn't look like Steiner , Ziegler or any of the other Seniors SS Commanders of the III SS Panzer Korps were very bothered about it !!

Himmler might have got hot under the collar about regulations but at the front things were clearly different , the same in any Army !!

regards

Paul

[MarcRikmenspoel]

Keep in mind that we're talking about the Estonians here. It IS documented (in Bender/Taylor, for example) that they rejected the collar tab that the Germans designed and made for them. It was a poor representation of the Estonian Freedom Cross symbol from the War of Independence, and the men of the 20. WGD didn't want to wear it. Many refused.

The mayor of Tartu (Dorpat) had a better-designed collar patch given to men of Riipalu's I./WGR 45 in February 1944. This proved so popular that the Estonian officers demanded an official version of it from the SS-FHA. The SS-FHA agreed to the demand, and introduced a redesigned collar patch!

So it'sobvious there was some special leeway for the Estonians. It helped that they were considered "almost Germanic" due to their extensive Nordic appearance, and their close relation to the Finns. The Finns had "honorary Germanic" status because it was felt that the Swedish minority had heavily influenced the Ugric majority, both culturally and genetically.

The Estonians were at first designated as "Freiwilligen" because they appeared Nordic and had been influenced by their Swedish and German minorities. By late 1943, however, full conscription was in effect, and men were no longer carefully screened, so that many volunteers were at least partly ethnic-Russian. Since any men available were being inducted, they were given "Waffen" status, but German goodwill still existed for the Estonians, based on the excellent battlefield performance of so many Estonian units (Riipalu's Schuma Bataillon near Stalingrad, Rebane's Heer Bataillon during the retreat from the Volkhov, Bataillon Narwa with Wiking, etc.). So Himmler and the SS-FHA tolerated some unofficial insignia.

[Edgar Alcidi]

Keep in mind that we're talking about the Estonians here. It IS documented (in Bender/Taylor, for example) that they rejected the collar tab that the Germans designed and made for them. It was a poor representation of the Estonian Freedom Cross symbol from the War of Independence, and the men of the 20. WGD didn't want to wear it. Many refused.

The mayor of Tartu (Dorpat) had a better-designed collar patch given to men of Riipalu's I./WGR 45 in February 1944. This proved so popular that the Estonian officers demanded an official version of it from the SS-FHA. The SS-FHA agreed to the demand, and introduced a redesigned collar patch!

So it'sobvious there was some special leeway for the Estonians. It helped that they were considered "almost Germanic" due to their extensive Nordic appearance, and their close relation to the Finns. The Finns had "honorary Germanic" status because it was felt that the Swedish minority had heavily influenced the Ugric majority, both culturally and genetically.

The Estonians were at first designated as "Freiwilligen" because they appeared Nordic and had been influenced by their Swedish and German minorities. By late 1943, however, full conscription was in effect, and men were no longer carefully screened, so that many volunteers were at least partly ethnic-Russian. Since any men available were being inducted, they were given "Waffen" status, but German goodwill still existed for the Estonians, based on the excellent battlefield performance of so many Estonian units (Riipalu's Schuma Bataillon near Stalingrad, Rebane's Heer Bataillon during the retreat from the Volkhov, Bataillon Narwa with Wiking, etc.). So Himmler and the SS-FHA tolerated some unofficial insignia.

Very interesting Marc, thanks!

[j dubbel]

I think the runes on the breast was just a "pimp up my tunic" thing amongst the Estonians. There are also many photos of enlisted soldiers of the 20th SS wearing them.

no one here seen the wiking cufftitle this fellow has
maybe its me just dropping in on something but i hope someone can explain this

[kass]

no one here seen the wiking cufftitle this fellow has
maybe its me just dropping in on something but i hope someone can explain this

Ex. Btl. "Narva". "Narva" was part of "Wiking" Division before joining 20-th SS in 1944.

[j dubbel]

Ex. Btl. "Narva". "Narva" was part of "Wiking" Division before joining 20-th SS in 1944.

thank you verry mutch
merry christmas to you all

[Felix]

Nice photos I have to say!
I guess a few of this "Ritterkreutz Verliehung" exists out there. I have 5 or 6 of them myself. They are taken from an album. I can not say if mine are post war or not, but they cost me a quite a few bucks back then. I have on or two which I do not believe I have seen before. (at least not myself) I bought mine 10 years ago. Ive read that there really exists a few of them. No wonder why there quite a few Soldiers awarded the knights cross. Still "quite important event" I guess, and well documented.

I guess the SS rune breast patch could also indicate that these soldiers at one stage had been serving in the SS polizei or having been attached to such a unit at some point.

//Felix

[Ljotrulf]

SS knight Cross also Estonia ID needed

Riipalu's name at birth was actually Reibach, which may indicate that he was or was viewed as a Volksdeutscher. A biography of Riipalu was published in Estonia (in the Estonian language) in 2010 and I believe there a copies of his SS File in this. This should give an indication as to whether or not he was a member of the SS.

[randy@treadways]

A biography of Riipalu was published in Estonia (in the Estonian language) in 2010 and I believe there a copies of his SS File in this. This should give an indication as to whether or not he was a member of the SS.

If you were not in the SS, would you have an SS file? A gestapo file perhaps. But maybe in the occupied territorities like Estonia the SS kept files on everybody too.

[Paul E]

The documents of Riipalu's personal file do not show any SS Number,

cheers

Paul

[Ljotrulf]

The documents of Riipalu's personal file do not show any SS Number,

cheers

Paul

Thanks Paul, I checked that last night too and no Party number and no SS number. It is still a mystery as to why Riipalu wore the runes on his tunic and is likely to remain so