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70 years ago today: Operation Barbarossa started 22. June 1941.

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    #16
    And maybe that the Allies had broken the Germans code, and the russians new exactly what the germans were up to (Kursk)

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      #17
      June 22

      Yes, I agree. All good ideas and info.

      MW

      Comment


        #18
        Yes, I too agree and I thank you for your good comments. I'm sorry to belabor this point, but I still wonder whether Hitler and the OKW knew of the existence of the Soviet forces on Stalin's eastern border? It would seem to me that they should have known it, but if so, how did they regard the threat? And secondly, was there any discussion among the Germans about asking the Japanese to open a second front, thus drawing off potential pressure from Operation Barbarossa? Interesting topic!

        Br. James

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          #19
          Originally posted by Gran Sasso View Post
          Yes, thank god we started the attack, just before Stalin did - otherwise we would not be germans today, but russians.

          Of course the fairytale of the german invasion, just for "Lebensraum im Osten" will be told over and over again (even by german brainwashed "historians")- the victor writes history. What else to expect?
          Hahaha Yep and Germany was quite correct to invade Poland due to provocation by the Poles!
          And its a modern "theory" without much substance that Stalin was poised to strike.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Gran Sasso View Post
            Yes, thank god we started the attack, just before Stalin did - otherwise we would not be germans today, but russians.

            Of course the fairytale of the german invasion, just for "Lebensraum im Osten" will be told over and over again (even by german brainwashed "historians")- the victor writes history. What else to expect?
            Now that is funny. Jacques

            Comment


              #21
              I bet the hundreds of thousands of Russian POW's thanked God Germany gave them the opportunity to be starved to death in those nice camps!

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Br. James View Post
                Yes, I too agree and I thank you for your good comments. I'm sorry to belabor this point, but I still wonder whether Hitler and the OKW knew of the existence of the Soviet forces on Stalin's eastern border? It would seem to me that they should have known it, but if so, how did they regard the threat? And secondly, was there any discussion among the Germans about asking the Japanese to open a second front, thus drawing off potential pressure from Operation Barbarossa? Interesting topic!

                Br. James
                "Fremde Heere Ost" made a very bad job and Hitler and the OKW underestimated the strenght of the Red Army by far. Later Hitler told one of his Advisors "If I had known how many tanks and airplanes the Red Army has - I had never attacked".

                There is another major question for me: How could this war became so cruel? This is hard to understand because the relationship between Russians and Germans were mostly very good in history.
                Last edited by LuckyStrike23; 06-24-2011, 11:42 AM. Reason: .

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                  #23
                  It seems with cold analysis that only France 1940 was a truely exceptional campaign, the French should have been easily a match for Germany, but had their backsides handed to them. The rest were against opposition who were no match for the Germans.

                  When they went up against industrial powerhouse nations, they were found wanting. The German economy and industry never lived up to aspirations. I don't think that's a historical myth. Technical achievement was no substitute for production numbers. If Germany, Russia and America lost 1000 tanks, two of the countries could replace them without trouble, the other found it a big loss. Without a truly efficient and productive economy, the German Army was bound to be defeated in the end. Ditto for Japan, losses were irreplaceable, America were always going to win.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Taken at face value, the fact that Germany held out as long as she did against overwhelming Allied numerical superiority is a testament to the German soldier's qualities. And let's face it, it was the Russians who won the war, not the Americans.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by VtwinVince View Post
                      Taken at face value, the fact that Germany held out as long as she did against overwhelming Allied numerical superiority is a testament to the German soldier's qualities. And let's face it, it was the Russians who won the war, not the Americans.
                      I am sure the Americans would not argue about that, but they might point out that they finished the war having conquered half of Germany.....

                      And yes Germany was good at holding out, they had to be since by 1943 that's all they had left to do.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by LuckyStrike23 View Post
                        "Fremde Heere Ost" made a very bad job and Hitler and the OKW underestimated the strenght of the Red Army by far. Later Hitler told one of his Advisors "If I had known how many tanks and airplanes the Red Army has - I had never attacked".
                        The old 'Conspiracy of Lies' theory. A old book now largely discredited but the damage has already been done.

                        And when talking about the Economic powerhouses these few Lend-lease
                        facts will boggle you mind a bit

                        MOTOR TRANSPORT VEHICLES 433,967

                        37mm ammo 9,731,622 rounds
                        75mm ammo 3,322,287 rounds

                        smokeless powder 280,546 tons
                        TNT 271,550 tons

                        Tanks and AFVs
                        light tanks M3~M5 1,676
                        med tanks M3~M4 5,489
                        SPA M13~m17 1,807
                        M2~M3A1 3,742

                        Plus spares such as 600000 spark-plugs

                        oh yeah

                        11,450 aircraft
                        1000 rail trucks
                        1,600+ locomotives

                        I could keep going and going and going. This is just from the US

                        Canada sent them over 5000 AFVs as well

                        The main point is that the Soviets tried to hide the above facts, and very effectively I might add as it is usually hard to spot any lend lease
                        equipment in official photos.

                        Fortunately time as a changing and many Russian historians are writing about the effect of lend lease . This site is an example airforce.ru

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by byterock View Post
                          The old 'Conspiracy of Lies' theory. A old book now largely discredited but the damage has already been done.

                          And when talking about the Economic powerhouses these few Lend-lease
                          facts will boggle you mind a bit

                          MOTOR TRANSPORT VEHICLES 433,967

                          37mm ammo 9,731,622 rounds
                          75mm ammo 3,322,287 rounds

                          smokeless powder 280,546 tons
                          TNT 271,550 tons

                          Tanks and AFVs
                          light tanks M3~M5 1,676
                          med tanks M3~M4 5,489
                          SPA M13~m17 1,807
                          M2~M3A1 3,742

                          Plus spares such as 600000 spark-plugs

                          oh yeah

                          11,450 aircraft
                          1000 rail trucks
                          1,600+ locomotives

                          I could keep going and going and going. This is just from the US

                          Canada sent them over 5000 AFVs as well

                          The main point is that the Soviets tried to hide the above facts, and very effectively I might add as it is usually hard to spot any lend lease
                          equipment in official photos.

                          Fortunately time as a changing and many Russian historians are writing about the effect of lend lease . This site is an example airforce.ru
                          Makes you wonder whether the Russians would have won without the Allies help.
                          The Germans would probably have smashed through at Kursk easily if the Russians didn't have access to German plans

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by Hofstetter View Post
                            Makes you wonder whether the Russians would have won without the Allies help.
                            ...edit...
                            At a minimum, they would've walked waaaaaaaay more than they did.

                            Hank
                            Unless it was nighttime, or the weather was bad, and you were running out of gas - then it was a sweaty nightmare, like a monkey f*ing a skunk.
                            ~ Dan Hampton, Viper Pilot

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Lend lease

                              Originally posted by byterock View Post
                              The old 'Conspiracy of Lies' theory. A old book now largely discredited but the damage has already been done.

                              And when talking about the Economic powerhouses these few Lend-lease
                              facts will boggle you mind a bit

                              MOTOR TRANSPORT VEHICLES 433,967

                              37mm ammo 9,731,622 rounds
                              75mm ammo 3,322,287 rounds

                              smokeless powder 280,546 tons
                              TNT 271,550 tons

                              Tanks and AFVs
                              light tanks M3~M5 1,676
                              med tanks M3~M4 5,489
                              SPA M13~m17 1,807
                              M2~M3A1 3,742

                              Plus spares such as 600000 spark-plugs

                              oh yeah

                              11,450 aircraft
                              1000 rail trucks
                              1,600+ locomotives

                              I could keep going and going and going. This is just from the US

                              Canada sent them over 5000 AFVs as well

                              The main point is that the Soviets tried to hide the above facts, and very effectively I might add as it is usually hard to spot any lend lease
                              equipment in official photos.

                              Fortunately time as a changing and many Russian historians are writing about the effect of lend lease . This site is an example airforce.ru

                              Byterock,

                              Staggering numbers. I get your point.

                              M-

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Good point. The German war economy was the least organized of that of any of the many combatant nations. There was overlapping responsibilities and fiefdoms. Many different models of key weapons were produced, instead of a large number of one or two proven models, as were the case with others. Key elements of the German population were not mobilized until later in the war, and there were constant turf battles. Even with Speer's efforts, this remained the case. I think it was a reflection of Hitler's leadership style.



                                Originally posted by willcpfc View Post
                                It seems with cold analysis that only France 1940 was a truely exceptional campaign, the French should have been easily a match for Germany, but had their backsides handed to them. The rest were against opposition who were no match for the Germans.

                                When they went up against industrial powerhouse nations, they were found wanting. The German economy and industry never lived up to aspirations. I don't think that's a historical myth. Technical achievement was no substitute for production numbers. If Germany, Russia and America lost 1000 tanks, two of the countries could replace them without trouble, the other found it a big loss. Without a truly efficient and productive economy, the German Army was bound to be defeated in the end. Ditto for Japan, losses were irreplaceable, America were always going to win.

                                Comment

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