70 years ago today: Operation Barbarossa started 22. June 1941.

[Hofstetter]

And maybe that the Allies had broken the Germans code, and the russians new exactly what the germans were up to (Kursk)

[panzer1432]

June 22

Yes, I agree. All good ideas and info.

MW

[Br. James]

Yes, I too agree and I thank you for your good comments. I'm sorry to belabor this point, but I still wonder whether Hitler and the OKW knew of the existence of the Soviet forces on Stalin's eastern border? It would seem to me that they should have known it, but if so, how did they regard the threat? And secondly, was there any discussion among the Germans about asking the Japanese to open a second front, thus drawing off potential pressure from Operation Barbarossa? Interesting topic!

Br. James

[willcpfc]

Yes, thank god we started the attack, just before Stalin did - otherwise we would not be germans today, but russians.

Of course the fairytale of the german invasion, just for "Lebensraum im Osten" will be told over and over again (even by german brainwashed "historians")- the victor writes history. What else to expect?

Hahaha Yep and Germany was quite correct to invade Poland due to provocation by the Poles!
And its a modern "theory" without much substance that Stalin was poised to strike.

[jacquesf]

Yes, thank god we started the attack, just before Stalin did - otherwise we would not be germans today, but russians.

Of course the fairytale of the german invasion, just for "Lebensraum im Osten" will be told over and over again (even by german brainwashed "historians")- the victor writes history. What else to expect?

Now that is funny. Jacques

[willcpfc]

I bet the hundreds of thousands of Russian POW's thanked God Germany gave them the opportunity to be starved to death in those nice camps!

[LuckyStrike23]

Yes, I too agree and I thank you for your good comments. I'm sorry to belabor this point, but I still wonder whether Hitler and the OKW knew of the existence of the Soviet forces on Stalin's eastern border? It would seem to me that they should have known it, but if so, how did they regard the threat? And secondly, was there any discussion among the Germans about asking the Japanese to open a second front, thus drawing off potential pressure from Operation Barbarossa? Interesting topic!

Br. James

"Fremde Heere Ost" made a very bad job and Hitler and the OKW underestimated the strenght of the Red Army by far. Later Hitler told one of his Advisors "If I had known how many tanks and airplanes the Red Army has - I had never attacked".

There is another major question for me: How could this war became so cruel? This is hard to understand because the relationship between Russians and Germans were mostly very good in history.

[willcpfc]

It seems with cold analysis that only France 1940 was a truely exceptional campaign, the French should have been easily a match for Germany, but had their backsides handed to them. The rest were against opposition who were no match for the Germans.

When they went up against industrial powerhouse nations, they were found wanting. The German economy and industry never lived up to aspirations. I don't think that's a historical myth. Technical achievement was no substitute for production numbers. If Germany, Russia and America lost 1000 tanks, two of the countries could replace them without trouble, the other found it a big loss. Without a truly efficient and productive economy, the German Army was bound to be defeated in the end. Ditto for Japan, losses were irreplaceable, America were always going to win.

[VtwinVince]

Taken at face value, the fact that Germany held out as long as she did against overwhelming Allied numerical superiority is a testament to the German soldier's qualities. And let's face it, it was the Russians who won the war, not the Americans.

[willcpfc]

Taken at face value, the fact that Germany held out as long as she did against overwhelming Allied numerical superiority is a testament to the German soldier's qualities. And let's face it, it was the Russians who won the war, not the Americans.

I am sure the Americans would not argue about that, but they might point out that they finished the war having conquered half of Germany.....

And yes Germany was good at holding out, they had to be since by 1943 that's all they had left to do.

[byterock]

"Fremde Heere Ost" made a very bad job and Hitler and the OKW underestimated the strenght of the Red Army by far. Later Hitler told one of his Advisors "If I had known how many tanks and airplanes the Red Army has - I had never attacked".

The old 'Conspiracy of Lies' theory. A old book now largely discredited but the damage has already been done.

And when talking about the Economic powerhouses these few Lend-lease
facts will boggle you mind a bit

MOTOR TRANSPORT VEHICLES 433,967

37mm ammo 9,731,622 rounds
75mm ammo 3,322,287 rounds

smokeless powder 280,546 tons
TNT 271,550 tons

Tanks and AFVs
light tanks M3~M5 1,676
med tanks M3~M4 5,489
SPA M13~m17 1,807
M2~M3A1 3,742

Plus spares such as 600000 spark-plugs

oh yeah

11,450 aircraft
1000 rail trucks
1,600+ locomotives

I could keep going and going and going. This is just from the US

Canada sent them over 5000 AFVs as well

The main point is that the Soviets tried to hide the above facts, and very effectively I might add as it is usually hard to spot any lend lease
equipment in official photos.

Fortunately time as a changing and many Russian historians are writing about the effect of lend lease . This site is an example airforce.ru

[Hofstetter]

The old 'Conspiracy of Lies' theory. A old book now largely discredited but the damage has already been done.

And when talking about the Economic powerhouses these few Lend-lease
facts will boggle you mind a bit

MOTOR TRANSPORT VEHICLES 433,967

37mm ammo 9,731,622 rounds
75mm ammo 3,322,287 rounds

smokeless powder 280,546 tons
TNT 271,550 tons

Tanks and AFVs
light tanks M3~M5 1,676
med tanks M3~M4 5,489
SPA M13~m17 1,807
M2~M3A1 3,742

Plus spares such as 600000 spark-plugs

oh yeah

11,450 aircraft
1000 rail trucks
1,600+ locomotives

I could keep going and going and going. This is just from the US

Canada sent them over 5000 AFVs as well

The main point is that the Soviets tried to hide the above facts, and very effectively I might add as it is usually hard to spot any lend lease
equipment in official photos.

Fortunately time as a changing and many Russian historians are writing about the effect of lend lease . This site is an example airforce.ru

Makes you wonder whether the Russians would have won without the Allies help.
The Germans would probably have smashed through at Kursk easily if the Russians didn't have access to German plans

[Hank C.]

Makes you wonder whether the Russians would have won without the Allies help.
...edit...

At a minimum, they would've walked waaaaaaaay more than they did.

Hank

[panzer1432]

Lend lease

The old 'Conspiracy of Lies' theory. A old book now largely discredited but the damage has already been done.

And when talking about the Economic powerhouses these few Lend-lease
facts will boggle you mind a bit

MOTOR TRANSPORT VEHICLES 433,967

37mm ammo 9,731,622 rounds
75mm ammo 3,322,287 rounds

smokeless powder 280,546 tons
TNT 271,550 tons

Tanks and AFVs
light tanks M3~M5 1,676
med tanks M3~M4 5,489
SPA M13~m17 1,807
M2~M3A1 3,742

Plus spares such as 600000 spark-plugs

oh yeah

11,450 aircraft
1000 rail trucks
1,600+ locomotives

I could keep going and going and going. This is just from the US

Canada sent them over 5000 AFVs as well

The main point is that the Soviets tried to hide the above facts, and very effectively I might add as it is usually hard to spot any lend lease
equipment in official photos.

Fortunately time as a changing and many Russian historians are writing about the effect of lend lease . This site is an example airforce.ru

Byterock,

Staggering numbers. I get your point.

M-

[LarryHW.]

Good point. The German war economy was the least organized of that of any of the many combatant nations. There was overlapping responsibilities and fiefdoms. Many different models of key weapons were produced, instead of a large number of one or two proven models, as were the case with others. Key elements of the German population were not mobilized until later in the war, and there were constant turf battles. Even with Speer's efforts, this remained the case. I think it was a reflection of Hitler's leadership style.

It seems with cold analysis that only France 1940 was a truely exceptional campaign, the French should have been easily a match for Germany, but had their backsides handed to them. The rest were against opposition who were no match for the Germans.

When they went up against industrial powerhouse nations, they were found wanting. The German economy and industry never lived up to aspirations. I don't think that's a historical myth. Technical achievement was no substitute for production numbers. If Germany, Russia and America lost 1000 tanks, two of the countries could replace them without trouble, the other found it a big loss. Without a truly efficient and productive economy, the German Army was bound to be defeated in the end. Ditto for Japan, losses were irreplaceable, America were always going to win.