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**Br. James** · 06-08-2011, 02:19 PM

Thank you for your further responses, Max. I certainly support your right to believe anything you wish, and I greatly appreciate your permitting me to live in my mistaken yet unassailable ignorance.

Respectfully,

Br. James

**max history** · 06-08-2011, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Mousey

I havn't read mein kampf apart from a few passages which popped up in other research threads but was Hitler not known to have used quite a bit of "artistic Licence" when discribing his own life and upbringing?

Yes, you are quite right, but usually where it showed him in a better light and not as much poetic license as post-war propaganda would wish us to believe. By 1924, his anti-Semitism was something about which he was extremely outspoken and proud of and therefore it would be more than surprising if he 'played down' the origins of his anti-Semitism.
Max.

**max history** · 06-08-2011, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

Thank you for your further responses, Max. I certainly support your right to believe anything you wish, and I greatly appreciate your permitting me to live in my mistaken yet unassailable ignorance.

Respectfully,

Br. James

Brother James,
I don't understand why you adopt such a veiled sarcastic tone, but if it makes you feel better, then so be it.
I have quoted Hitler's own words describing the roots of his anti-Semitism, plus the investigations by an author who thoroughly researched his time in Vienna. There are numerous other sources, especially August Kubizek, Hitler's friend of his youth. Kubizek, although a close companion during Hitler's Linz and Vienna days, hardly mentions Hitler's anti-Semitism until near the end of his book and their friendship in Vienna. He points out that Hitler only began his diatribes against the Jews towards the end of his time in Vienna, after reading works by anti-Semitic authors who had a significant influence upon him. In my experience, the majority of historians agree that the roots of Hitler's anti-Semitism lie in his period of poverty in Vienna and that he had no such beliefs prior to that. I therefore cannot accept that his family life had any bearing upon his subsequent anti-Semitism.
Sincerely,
Max.

**Br. James** · 06-08-2011, 04:20 PM

Thank you again, Max, though I don't know why you would accuse me of sarcasm! I have tried with each note to respectfully disagree with you, with no sense of anything veiled. How am I expected to disagree with you if you see any disagreement as delivered in "a veiled sarcastic tone?" If I have made any inappropriate remark, which was never my intention, I apologize to you willingly. But I would hope that you would permit me the right to honestly disagree with your point of view on this or any other matter. Isn't that what this whole site is supposed to be about, obtaining a variety of opinions on a given subject? If it isn't then I've missed the point altogether.

Br. James

**max history** · 06-08-2011, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

....I greatly appreciate your permitting me to live in my mistaken yet unassailable ignorance.
Respectfully,
Br. James

I think I recognise sarcasm when I see it. Unfortunately, given your last reply, you also now come across as rather patronizing, so I think it best that we agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Max.

**kaiserwilhelm2** · 06-09-2011, 02:35 AM

Guys,

no one knows the origin of Hitler's anti-semitism or when it first came about. I have read quite a few reputable books on the subject and all are inconclusive as to when Hitler became an anti-semite prior to the period when we know he was as he uttered himself in that way publicly (i.e. as a politician of sorts). The last one being Hitler's first war which just came out a few weeks ago. The reason for this is that there very, very few sources on Hitler's life before he gained notoriety in the 1920s. Hilter did not keep a diary, he seldom wrote to anyone or confided in anyone. He was a loner that liked to read newspapers and books. There are few credible sources of information when it comes to his 'early' anti-semitism (Kubizek is definately not one of them).

As a result there is no overwhelming evidence that Hitler was an anti-semite prior to him getting involved in politics in the early twenties. A period in time in which the so-called Jewish question in Germany became a more widespread political issue (as opposed to a fringe issue) in the wake of the Russian revolution and the communist/socialist revolutionary disturbances in Germany in the years after WWI in which some people of Jewish origin (like Rosa Luxemburg and Kurt Eisner) played their part.

A Jewish officer recommended Hitler for the Iron Cross he displayed so proudly till the day he died. Jews sold Hitler's paintings (now rediciously overpriced) in Vienna when he lived his squalid existance there prior to WWI. If Hitler had anti-semitic tendencies prior to the 1920s he obviously did not give much credence to these nor acted upon them - no matter what he claims in Mein Kampf. The latter being a book written by an aspiring politician reinventing his earlier failed existence (high school drop out, work shy, did not make the cut for the art academy and so on) to give this the appearance of a grand plan. Clever but full of half truths and lies - as has been clearly demonstrated in existing literature.

It is very frustrating to know so little of the origins of Hitler's anti-semitism as it had such a terrible impact later on. It is also very frustrating that although an incredible amount has been written about this man, it is still puzzling how exactly this very obscure person from Austria could become dicator of Germany and kept it spell bound till the country was bombed flat and millions of Germans had died.

Willem

**max history** · 06-09-2011, 03:09 AM

Willem,
I agree with most of what you say. However, do not discount the evidence provided by witnesses to Hitler's diatribes against the Jews during his period in Vienna and in WW1 and the lack of such views prior to this. In fact, Hitler alienated some of his comrades in the trenches with his political and anti-Semite rantings. And of course one cannot simply discount the most important evidence of Hitler himself. Hitler's early life is a little sketchy, but there is no substantial evidence that his childhood and youth at home were punctuated with anti-Semite influences. Anti-Semitism and other predjudices were present in the late 19th and early 20th century, but that doesn't mean he was influenced by them. On the contrary, the evidence which does exist leans strongly towards his family life being free from such extremes.
We will never know for sure, but the existing evidence does strongly indicate that Hitler's roots in anti-Semitism lie within his readings and experiences during his period of poverty in Vienna before his move to Munich and before WW1.
Regards,
Max.

**kaiserwilhelm2** · 06-09-2011, 04:12 AM

Hi Max,

thanks for replying. I would be interested in who these witnesses were to "Hitler's diatribes against the Jews during his period in Vienna and in WW1". I am unaware of any credible witnesses to this effect.

"In fact, Hitler alienated some of his comrades in the trenches with his political and anti-Semite rantings." I also do not know of any credible statements to this effect.

On the contrary the absence of any anti-semitic statements of Hitler during this period is overwhelming. What is known of his political ideas at that time is that Hitler supported the war till the very end and that he believed in the official war propaganda. In this he differed very little from the officer corps and all those who towed the national line. It is also very unlikely that a Jewish officer that worked with Hitler on almost a daily basis would have recommended a raving anti-semite for the Iron Cross which only Hitler and only one other EM got in the List regiment during the whole of WWI. If there were any fellow soldiers that Hitler offended with his political rantings - his senior officer would most likely have know this. In all about 467 EM in the whole German army were so honored. That was it what made Hitler's EK such a big deal - the fact that it was almost never awarded to EM.

Max, please be so kind as to provide sources that support these statements and that clearly demonstrate Hitler's anti-semitism prior to 1918/early twenties. Failing those I will hold to my claim that there is no conclusive evidence that clearly demonstrates that Hitler was an early anti-semite i.e. prior to 1918/early twenties.

Cheers, W

**max history** · 06-09-2011, 07:58 AM

I do not have immediate access to most of my books as they are in storage, but off the top of my head, August Kubizek ("Young Hitler") quotes Hitler's anti-Semitic declarations in Vienna. These can be found towards the end of the book in the chapter entitled "Political Awakening." In addition, his anti-Semitic views in the latter half of WW1 are mentioned several times in Thomas Weber's "Hitler's First War." I believe other indications are possibly given in Joachim C. Fest "Hitler" and also John Toland's "Adolf Hitler," but to be specific I would have to retrieve my reference books out of storage. I cannot remember if Kershaw mentions it in his two volume biography.
Max.

**kaiserwilhelm2** · 06-09-2011, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by max history View Post

I do not have immediate access to most of my books as they are in storage, but off the top of my head, August Kubizek ("Young Hitler") quotes Hitler's anti-Semitic declarations in Vienna. These can be found towards the end of the book in the chapter entitled "Political Awakening." In addition, his anti-Semitic views in the latter half of WW1 are mentioned several times in Thomas Weber's "Hitler's First War." I believe other indications are possibly given in Joachim C. Fest "Hitler" and also John Toland's "Adolf Hitler," but to be specific I would have to retrieve my reference books out of storage. I cannot remember if Kershaw mentions it in his two volume biography.
Max.

Hi Max,

Kubizek is by most scholar's not regarded as a reliable wittness. His 'memoirs' of his time with Hitler were produced for the NSDAP after Hitler had come to power. Kubizek was rewarded for his work with a job promotion as, I believe, a civil servant somewhere in Austria. Tne Nazi's of course wanted to portray Hitler as an early anti-semite as this would confirm what Hitler had written in Mein Kampf. Furthermore this would once more demonstrate that Hitler had already at an early age recognized the Jewish 'menance'. To be absolutely clear on this: I do not support any views that see the Jews as a menance, nor do I see them as such.

Weber's book does not have any anti-semitic statements by Hitler in his book. There is just a text on one of Hitler's postcards which mentions that he would like to see a more nationalist Germany and a less cosmopolitan/internationally oriented Germany. I would argue that that remark is not necessarily anti-semitic and furthermore just one statement in Weber's 300 pages dealing with Hitler time at the List Regiment which unfortunately learns us very, very little about Hitler during this period. Weber is not even able to let us know exactly for what reasons Hitler was awarded the EK II and I. In any case Weber's book is rather insufficient to conclude Hitler was an anti-semite at that time.

More in general if one looks closely at the many biographies of the German dictator it becomes shockingly obvious that very, very little is know about what made him tick. Sure we know a lot about him, but not really what made him the man he became. This of course is always a very hard question, but that even after I do not know how many hunderd biographies we do not know this of Hitler is quite disapointing.

Cheers, W

**max history** · 06-09-2011, 10:53 AM

Most witnesses to Hitler's pre-war and WW1 experiences provided their statements during the Third Reich era. This is not surprising as their testimonies would not have been of any value had he not achieved power and disappeared from history without trace. As in Hitler's "Mein Kampf," I find it unacceptable to dismiss any statements with the attitude of "well, he would say that, wouldn't he?" This is not meant as a criticism of your opinion, but more an objective way of looking at the available evidence.
Who decided that Kubizek was an unreliable witness? Who are the so-called scholars to whom you refer? Surely it's just their interpretation and opinion? If he is one of the few witnesses to Hitler's youth, one has to consider his evidence. Whether you accept it or not is a matter of choice, but if one believes he put Hitler in a good light to promote his own ambitions, it is just supposition.
I believe you are mistaken regarding the lack of anti-Semitic statements by Hitler in Weber's book. I read it a few months ago and I can easily remember certain statements made by Hitler which indicated his anti-Jewish views. Didn't he refer to an officer as "....that Jew. I salute him in the field, but here he is just another (Jew?)" I do not have the book before me so you'll have to forgive me if I can't remember the exact wording.
Thinking of the subject of Hitler's anti-Semitism logically, it makes perfectly good sense that he was influenced by anti-Semitic writing at a time when he was most vulnerable, i.e. when he was broke and homeless. It is common behaviour to seek somebody to blame for ones own ills, but it is how one deals with it that remains important. Unfortunately, for many thousands of people, Hitler chose to embark upon the path which resulted in what we know today as the Holocaust.
Regards,
Max.

**J. Wraith** · 06-09-2011, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by max history View Post

Willem,
I agree with most of what you say. However, do not discount the evidence provided by witnesses to Hitler's diatribes against the Jews during his period in Vienna and in WW1 and the lack of such views prior to this. In fact, Hitler alienated some of his comrades in the trenches with his political and anti-Semite rantings. And of course one cannot simply discount the most important evidence of Hitler himself. Hitler's early life is a little sketchy, but there is no substantial evidence that his childhood and youth at home were punctuated with anti-Semite influences. Anti-Semitism and other predjudices were present in the late 19th and early 20th century, but that doesn't mean he was influenced by them. On the contrary, the evidence which does exist leans strongly towards his family life being free from such extremes.
We will never know for sure, but the existing evidence does strongly indicate that Hitler's roots in anti-Semitism lie within his readings and experiences during his period of poverty in Vienna before his move to Munich and before WW1.
Regards,
Max.

Max,

The lack of evidence does not mean it was not so, if not in the home in text. It is not unusual for a young person who absorbs text to take a view or opinion of it and have it fester. What Hitler says in Mein Kampf is his take on his feelings and when he says he took certain opinions, that does not mean its so. The fact that there is no evidence could be due to the fact that he really did not have a voice in his youth and the political environment and his moves made his feeling come to the top and be heard, how long he had them is anyone's guess.

The man read mountains of text and had a photographic memory, his anti-semetic views were not what I would call typical Archie Bunker type stuff and are quite vicious and quite recognizable from previous text from any number of authors, its regurgitated trash as was Mein Kampf. All this letter is is the same type of rant that went into that book and its presented as some kind of early manifesto for the systematic murder of the Jews, I do not see that being the case this early and do not see whats so special about the letter, which by the way was the original topic. I really do not see someone coming into these views so quickly and would imagine that he would have had exposure to anti-semitism in many forms as a child as that is common even as a child whether in a schoolyard or a library. It may be an early view when he became visible, but he probably retained some form of view long before. Its an opinion but you yourself state there is no evidence.

John

**max history** · 06-09-2011, 02:23 PM

I think if he had such views they would have manifested in some way a lot earlier. My point is, there is no evidence prior to Kubizek's testimony (whether you believe him or not) that Hitler expressed anti-Semitic views for the first time in Vienna, to refute this claim. The lack of any mention of such views prior to this tends to indicate that his anti-Semitic opinions originated there and subsequently began to develop thereafter. Whatever any of us say, it has been correctly highlighted that nobody will ever know and therefore the question will remain unresolved unless other evidence comes to light. Having quoted several sources of existing evidence, I find that I can add nothing further and therefore, in the words of a previous calling, I rest my case Your Worship!
Regards,
Max.

**J. Wraith** · 06-09-2011, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by max history View Post

I think if he had such views they would have manifested in some way a lot earlier. My point is, there is no evidence prior to Kubizek's testimony (whether you believe him or not) that Hitler expressed anti-Semitic views for the first time in Vienna, to refute this claim. The lack of any mention of such views prior to this tends to indicate that his anti-Semitic opinions originated there and subsequently began to develop thereafter. Whatever any of us say, it has been correctly highlighted that nobody will ever know and therefore the question will remain unresolved unless other evidence comes to light. Having quoted several sources of existing evidence, I find that I can add nothing further and therefore, in the words of a previous calling, I rest my case Your Worship!
Regards,
Max.

Max,

I do not think there is any need for worship or sarcasm, all I am saying is that it should be quite clear to anyone that Adolf Hitler was a product of anti-semitism and his writings mirror those of noted personalities going back centuries, there has always been some kind of Jewish question in Europe, Germany, etc. If you read his ramblings you will find with ease their origin and with such a long line of anti semetic history how would you even discount where he got his opinions or feelings?. He seems to have modeled himself after Frederick who was no real fan of the Jews and his writings mirror Luther who did rise in his writings to references to slaughter and being rid of the Jews. I really do not see how anyone can see him as anything original at all.

The letter is propped up as being some kind of "Proof" that the slaughter or planned holocaust dates back to 1919?. It dates back centuries and the letter conflicts with early policy at least in terms of what they sought to do in removing the Jewish people, I do not see "slaughter" in the letter. I do see it in historical text that predates Hitler, not to say that was not his intent or a possibility at the time as he clearly carried it out. But it is subjective for its time.

J

**Br. James** · 06-09-2011, 05:12 PM

Friends,

In my first note on this thread of yesterday I included a second paragraph which may have gotten missed as this discussion evolved. Here it is again:

There is another article attached to the first one which, IMO, is of much more significance than any statement of Hitler's antisemitism: it is a report written in 1948 by one of Rudolf Hess' adjutants which describes events prior to Hess' flight to Scotland in 1941 and of Hitler's actual reaction to word of Hess' arrest there. Here we have something closing in on actual eye-witness reporting of these events from inside the halls of Nazi power. Very interesting indeed!

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Many thanks,

Br. James

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