Rudel wartime signed

[VtwinVince]

Here is a postwar Rudel from the 1970's.

[Jeremy]

10 a penny

Thanks for posting guys!! Great to see others post stuff....

Here are some more Rudels. So many of them they should be going cheap. Should be able to get one at Duxford Airshow free with any print...

[Jeremy]

And another one.

Yet another one. Two for the price of one, anyone.

[Jeremy]

And more

Here is another load of crap. The interesting thing about these is that they are from the book mit Schwertern und Brillanten by Günter Faschka, but the very early editions like 1959. So in fact it is a fake postwar sig.

Same fake sigs as the clippings (#4, #12, #17, #18) and photos on #2. Look at that fake Hartmann too. I'll discuss that and post more on the Hartmann thread later regarding this.

[Jeremy]

Differences

Unlike Hartmann where the differences are clear between good and fake ones, Rudel, like Marseille, is more tricky. But I think there are noteworthy differences worth exploring. It's an easier sig to fake. Similar to Steven6095, the two pdf's aid comparison - don't have the software to do better than this.

IMO (as usual), the sig examples on clippings which I think are more likely to be good wartime ones because of the small messages, style and condition (e.g. see posts #3 - one with photo, #5, #6) compared to the nice BS (I don't use the term 'fake' as it is not so clear cut as with Hartmann - I shouldn't of used the term 'fake' in this Rudel thread yet) clippings (e.g. see posts #4, #17, #18) in the same perfect style, of which there are plenty in comparison.

Again, I am separating things into two camps, like with Hartmann. We have one style of material (e.g. see posts #3 - one with photo, #5, #6) and we have the other style (e.g. see posts #2, #4, #17, #18). My own experience as a collector of wartime sigs puts me firmly in the #3, #17, #18 camp - with some other experienced German collectors. You make your own choice, of course. That is why we have ongoing debate and disagreement over the years (but don't blindly believe what dealers tell you).

Please use the pdfs to identify similarites and differences between the two types of sigs posted on this thread. No need for me to give my views, please form your own views. Compare between the 2 sigs within each pdf and across the pdf's.

Beyond the close-up comparisons, I would say that looking at the ones I believe are genuine, one thing I notice is the tendency for the last name to slope downwards, but in the other style of (BS) sigs, the name is either level or going up. For me this also suggests a different signer. Again, it's a general tendency.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of the ones I think are BS, as I said (they help sell art gallery prints), but few good ones (no surprise there), so at this stage it is difficult to make strong generalizations about the hand writing tendencies. But it's a start. It's a way of being more informed.

[Jeremy]

clarify

Just to be clear... on the pdf's, I have put the BS ones first at the top of the page, and the good ones below for comparison

[Jeremy]

More

Two more 'rare' Rudel clippings... draw your own conclusions about these from info on this thread.

[Jeremy]

Wartime stuff

Here are some more good wartime clippings - compare them to the other ones on the thread in the same 'set' in posts #5 and #3 - Rudel clipping with photo).

None of the IMO good ones is in the type of ink like the IMO BS clippings, none of them has just his last name like the BS clippings, none of them comes without a magazine picture or photo or a random picture of a stuka like the BS clippings (yes, one BS clipping has a related Rudel b&w magazine pic - see post #17 bottom pic - but the vast majority remain blank, conveniently). All notable differences, so two clear types.

There is a bit of variety in the sig in one of them on this post that makes it more like the Hoffmann in post #1 . So it seems there may have been a slight variation in the sig after or prior to 1943 as one type of sig is dated on the clipping in post #5. Mark's example (#15) is also 1943, so it is confusing. There is also variety in the ink it seems for the good ones, and one of the IMO good ones here is in pencil.

As I noted before, the last name on the one set of (good) sigs including the two posted here has a tendency to fall downwards - all including those with a slight variation in the "R' etc. This consistent feature is not evident in the BS set of sigs, some of which go up or are just straight across. Anybody got any Rudel award documents?

So, further evidence of two different sets of wartime sigs out there, like Hartmann and Marseille - IMO, one good set as exemplified in this post (see also posts #5 and #3 - one with Rudel photo attached) and one Bit/Bloody Suspicious set (e.g. posts #1, #2, #4, #19, #22). Think carefully before you buy, and consider the information in this thread and you might save yourself some money and heartache...

Of course, I have said one set of sigs shown is BS and the other set is good and drawn your attention to key differences. That's my opinion informed by the discrepencies in the two sets of material. If you believe that my BS set is actually the authentic set, then that is your choice and your money to spend. I know which would look more convincing with my Rudel print.

[pfeil335]

This was posted on the Wehrmacht-awards forum some time ago showing wartime Rudel signatures.
Personally I wouldnt trust the signed Stuka photo though!

pfeil335

[fz1]

Here are some more good wartime clippings

Jeremy - I've lost the plot a bit now. Are you saying that the ones in Post #23 are good ones? If so, how about the fact that the writing starts half way down the sheet on one and at the bottom on the other - I thought that was an indicator of them being fake?

Or have I missed the point? (not unusual ... I'm getting on a bit now!)

[Jeremy]

nope

Thanks for asking FZ1...

First, clarification for you:

Two sets of sigs - one good set as exemplified by posts #5 and #3 - one with Rudel photo attached, and the two clippings in post #23....

... and one Bit/Bloody Suspicious set (e.g. posts #1, #2, #4, #19, #22, and #24 Stuka photo signed - well-spotted pfeil335). BTW, this is evidence-based commentary, not just my unsupported or uninformed opinion as suggested on ehangar.

Please check those photos and you will see what I mean regarding the signatures - same for other guys on ehangar. BlenheimMk1 has a dud Rudel clipping in his framed Rudel montage (see close up photo of it below)... no doubt. It takes the shine off his very nice modern Trudgian original pencil drawing, for sure.

http://www.ehangar.com/modules.php?n...ghlight=korlin

Same for this nice Trudgian framed montage (see photo below) now being offloaded on ehangar with a dud Rudel (close up of the Rudel in post #22) and Wittmann clipping (Letter of Authenticity for each from which dealer?):

http://www.ehangar.com/modules.php?n...ighlight=rudel

Oh, and see the art dealer's response about "war time" sigs - these guys have no idea...


Your question

As to your question... I have not said anything in this thread about the fact that the writing starts halfway down the page is an indicator of a fake clipping...

This is what I said in post #23:

None of the IMO good ones is in the type of ink like the IMO BS clippings, none of them has just his last name like the BS clippings, none of them comes without a magazine picture or has a photo or a random picture of a stuka like the BS clippings (yes, one BS clipping has a related Rudel b&w magazine pic - see post #17 bottom pic - but the vast majority remain blank, conveniently).

So, I have not said that an issue with the BS single-signed clippings is one of where the clipping is signed. The issues are the lack of variety in the ink used to sign (see also the photos in post #2), the use of just the last name compared to the use of a note and/or full name, the lack of a pic or photo of Rudel himself. Noticeable differences, along with the sig, from the good clippings. Informed observations, BTW, not just random opinion.


However, the multi-signed guest book pages are a different kettle of fish, and Max has posted some good examples for us in the Marseilles thread compared to those BS ones posted by a certain dealer (I won't name him, as otherwise all the ehangar guys think this is a "witch hunt")...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=510951

...and see also the 'Help needed with sigs' thread (post #20) for a double copy of a BS multi-signed guest book page...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=509860


Hope that helps, and keep the good questions coming... The ehangar boys might wake up to reality eventually...

[Jeremy]

designer clipping of rudel

another example of what happens to BS clippings that a dealer (legendsaviation) probably can't sell-they get a nice artists drawing and become a 'designer clipping'... and then fans of Robert Taylor or Nic Trudgian such as those on ehangar buy it cos they are not informed enough about the sig authenticity...

Rudel BS sig all dressed up and framed... the artist drawing is of value but not the BS sig

[merdock]

Hi,
So how rare are original Rudel wartime signitures.
Mark

[Jeremy]

Revisiting Rudel and looking at Wick

I was interested to see that the Open Assault print from Robert Taylor has a Rudel Tribute Proof Edition, a photo of which I posted previously without realising their are fourteen available:

For example, you can read about it at a gallery I won't name.

THE RUDEL TRIBUTE PROOF
With ALL the components of the Generals Edition, the Tribute Proof Edition is released with a unique, ORIGINAL, hand-signed and hand-numbered pencil drawing by artist Robert Taylor, matted to include the authentic wartime signature of HANS-ULRICH RUDEL, the most successful Stuka Ace in history, his wingman HELMUT FICKEL, together with three other eminent Stuka pilots, all holders of the Knights Cross. The main print, Open Assault, is also signed by Battle of Britain Luftwaffe Ace Hans-Ekkehard Bob, creating a highly collectable FOURTEEN signature edition.

The Proof Edition print is shown in this post.

So, Rudel's sig is obviously not rare if you believe that the autograph shown is authentic. However, those Rudel sigs are very likely (no ink analysis yet, so I use tentative language) fake crap (in perfect condition) of the like we have begun to see more and more examples of, and I bet I know the source they came from. I am surprised these prints don't come with a Rudel signed combat report, too. Next edition maybe.

And if that wasn't enough: Here's Helmut Wick in an edition of 20... yes, 20 lovely clippings signed by Helmut who was killed in 1940, have miraculously survived the rest of the war. Yeah, right, and they all have found their way to one supplier. Yeah, right.

Again an example description from here from a gallery I won't name:

THE ORIGINAL PENCIL TRIBUTE EDITION (subject to availability)

This wonderful TWENTY signature edition is released with all the components of the Anniversary Edition, PLUS every print accompanied by an ORIGINAL pencil drawing by the world’s premier aviation artist Robert Taylor. Two RAF veterans have joined the artist in signing each drawing, which has been conservation matted to include the original signatures of six legendary figures who flew in the Battle of Britain, including two of the highest scoring pilots of the conflict:

Major HELMUT WICK (matted)

I bet I will find others by digging around - ooh! what a surprise. LegendsAviationGallery have a blank Wick signed clipping for sale: p5 of WW2 signatures. We know who supplies LegendsAviation... the same person who has sold at least one fake Marseille item.

Hmmm, not hard evidence for sure, but it all adds to the growing case of something rotten going on when these print editions appear with regularity and in such numbers accompanied by these 'wartime' clipping signatures. If print retailers like Military Gallery are relying on the dubious word of their wartime signature supplier, then they might consider requiring more scientific evidence before flogging this stuff, given the information in other related threads.

[Jeremy]

More Wick clippings

OK, I had a spare 5 mins: 11 more clippings for Wick...

10 with prints

http://www.nicolastrudgian.com/colle...lection_id=127

http://www.aviationartgallery.co.uk/...fo/Horrido.htm

and one more (that looks like it was signed yesterday) on a forum

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20168

Bet I know where they came from....

plus a related thread of interest

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?p=2826431