Hans Joachim Marseille Signed Photo

[Dark Angel]

But you have also sold the shown items on your website.
Copies or originals?
Anyway, I think the best way to find out is to contact the Bundesarchiv and ask them if they have any of these items stored or sold.

[Luger-Hunter]

Hi Dark Angel !

I think, that I have to give up here in the forum.
I worked hard to find out how I can post documents
here. Than I posted documents signed by Marseille.
Now you come up with this question?!
I have other samples here from combat reports.

Please feel free to contact the archive (I will provide you the
adress and phone number).
I am not sure, what I have to think about this forum.
Whatever I write - I get very stupid questions all the time
after I posted something.

It should be, that I am wasting my time here in the forum.
I spent hrs. just to post this and now I get always this kind
of feedback. I do not get any payment here to inform here
the collectors.

I would like to apologize if I wrote something about the masters of the
forum here but if somebody is real interested in help, I prefer
the direct contact.

And yes ... the archive gave away years ago tons of documents
to destroy. A part of the archive is already closed because the
time was running out for the retirement money of the veterans.
Also; most combat repors doesn´t exist only one time!
It does mean in fact; the pilot had to fill out the same combat
report mostly twice! or sometimes he did it three times !
Combat reports kept also in the hand of the pilot.

I have other combat reports here from other pilots which I got
from either the familiy of the pilot or the pilot byself many years ago.
If somebody has real question, I am happy to help but I am
not interested in conversations like I got recently (today and
yesterday).

By the way: some combat reports from Marseille were also sold
in some auctions over the years and never doubt the authenticity
of these combat reports.

Best regards, Stefan

[Steven6095]

Stefan - thank you for taking the time to post the images.
They are a treat to look at and I know at least that I appreciate you taking the time to do that.
I also take those documents as being 100% not a doubt authentic and frankly would not mind to have one in my collection.
Wish you had time to post your entire collection. That would be a treat for everyone, but I know is impossible to do so.

I do have one question if you have a moment.
The examples you posted all have a consistant signature matching one of the styles below (#2).

Do you know when he used / have any documents with the other style of signature (#1)?

Based on what you have said, I assume both are authentic, just curious as to when one vs another.
Thank you.

[max history]

Max !

I personally got the documents (copies) out of the "Bundesarchiv".
Max - I think, that you don´t even believe yourself.
I don´t take advantages from posting this here in the forum.

Those samples came all out of the archive in mid to end
of the 80´s.
Max - I think that you doesn´t even trust your own person.
What kind of proof do you need more.
Shall I get a statement from the archive that I was in person
in the archive?

I just posted here some samples of documents out of the
archive. But I already expected, that you will doubt everything
coming from me.

You should make your homework!
But once again - you are an invited guest.
Come and visit me and I show you a bunch of original documents
here in my house.

What absolute rubbish. Are you actually asking us to believe that these are Bundesarchiv documents? If so, how did you obtain full colour copies when the Bundesarchiv provided only black and white Xerox copies? I am a very experienced user of Bundesarchiv material and you have just demonstrated that you have absolutely no idea of how the Bundesarchiv worked during the 1980s. I ask any other person to provide full colour images they obtained from the Bundesarchiv in the 1980s. It just didn't happen.
You even suggest that the Bundesarchiv might have sold or given away part of its holdings! Unbelievable. If anyone who knows anything about the use of Bundesarchiv material has any doubts that your statements are anything less than gibberish, then they need medical help. My wife's cousin works for the Bundesarchiv service and has told me that under no circumstances would the Bundesarchiv release their holdings. I will accept your offer of a contact address to verify your claims. Please provide it.
The only other explanation you might provide is that these were stolen from the Bundesarchiv in the 1980s. In which case, why are they in your possession and why did you say they originally came from the family?
In my opinion, these "documents" you have posted here are total fabrication. You have not provided any proof whatsoever that these are original documents. The simple explanation is that they are not. I have been collecting and studying both authentic and forged material for about 40 years and these items do not come close to authentic material. They might be sufficient to fool inexperienced collectors and inexperienced students of Third Reich history, but through hard work and perseverance I am not one of those. I am one of those people who have actually done their homework and I challenge nearly every statement you have made on this forum. You have provided no proof of your statements, other than your word which, quite frankly, holds no water whatsoever without valid support. If people choose to believe this nonsense, then that is their prerogative. I hope that others will see through this charade for what it is.
Max.

[VtwinVince]

I have to agree with Max here. I dealt extensively with the Bundesarchiv in the 1980's, whilst researching my uncle's Luftwaffe career. All documents were sent to me as black and white copies. I attempted to obtain the originals, as they were the award documents and Soldbuch, ie. personal property of my uncle. Nothing doing. They were not interested in the slightest in turning over any documents. Regarding Mr. Korlin, I have no dealings with him, but it's obvious that he has a monetary stake in this discussion, which makes me suspicious.

[Jeremy]

Keep it real

Hi guys. Thanks all for posting.

Stefan, thank you for taking the time to post an extensive array of Marseille related material. Please don't be so defensive and become upset by the responses. You are not wasting your time here, you are adding to the discussion. If you would only keep calm and rational, we can develop the thread in a proper manner. It may be irritating to you when people are asking you questions, but take it easy and just indulge the poster. We all want to understand more.

BTW Stefan, could you do me a favour and post some wartime photos of Hartmann on the 'Erich Hartmann signed material' thread for us to look at? That would be very informative. Thanks.

Max, please also try to not get your blood pressure up.

Unlike Steven6095, I am not keen to jump in and say the two different types of sig that have been identified in this thread and he shows in post #129 are by the same person, or that what Stefan has posted is from the Bundesarchiv. Personally, I don't think the Bundesarchiv would sell/release any wartime documents for sale through public channels. These are historical documents. Ask any official archive if you can buy/have a few of their documents and I would doubt very much that they would agree to do that. Having said that, Stefan may have a contact there. The Bundesarchiv will be contacted about their policy anyway.

As Max says, if by chance the documents do come from the Bundesarchiv, then I am happy to accept the sigs posted as authentic. That is great, as we have solved this riddle, and I have a great signed Marseille photo in my collection.

In the meantime, let's look at the sigs material, which is of major interest to me. Now, Stefan, I am just using my understanding of the nature of the sigs to inform the discussion. I am not having a go at you. So keep cool.

As another poster says, as yet, we have no proven source to support where these docs come from. They are a set of sigs which Stefan states are authentic and from the Bundesarchiv, yet we have compared this type of sig to Known good ones from Wubbe and the Hamilton verified one, and they are notably different.

Look at the two "Schuldenfreiheitserklärung" - means "without any debt", I have posted. One Stefan posted (#119) and the other is from earlier in the thread (post #50). They are dated the same day, with the same info with the exactly the same layout . Look at the '0' on the year. It is different, and also the catalogue numbering (17 on one, 14 crossed out and 16 added). I need to understand more about this document and it's use in wartime, but I find it very odd that we have two survivng the war from the same day in perfect condition which are essentially identical. This set my alarm bells ringing.

Looking at all the sigs, they are almost identical to the set which I have grouped and titled Bit Suspicious (BS). In contrast, I don't see how they fit in with the set of good ones which come from Wubbe and the one verified by Hamilton. Just an obvious comparison.

Note the (I believe) BS sigs do not change over 2 years... they are all very, very similar despite being signed in different wartime contexts over 2 years. A minor point, I agree. Unfortunately, we cannot date the Hamilton sig, only the Wubbe ones, which are around the same time frame, so we would expect similarity in that set.

We have seen that the combat report in Tate (post #51) contains information that has been altered - see post #54 and Wubbe #73). This means we seem to have an issue, and what amounts to a potentially fake document in post #51. Was the original source of Tate's the Bundesarchiv? The sig on this potentially fake has the features of the set of sigs shown in post #95 (titled the BS set) . This casts some doubt on any sigs in that set IMO, and therefore on and Stefan's reports in post #120. On the other hand, Wubbe's may be dodgy. I need to check the source.

Also, the combat reports are numbered in blue pencil by what appears to be the same hand (see also Schuldenfreiheitserklärung). Maybe one person was responsible for the catalogueing, but the Wubbe combat reports do not have this numbering. Again, it separates out the two types of material. We need to check the Bundesarchiv.

Also, the pencil numbering sequence is odd for the (I believe) BS reports:

Reports in order of date/Number/Post number
3.9.40 262 #122
15.2.42 (13.00) 168 #120
15.2.42 (13.03) 169 #5
16.5.42 161(?) #20
13.6.42 269 #55
1.9.42 179 #120


Again, if this is material from the Bundesarchiv, and considering German efficiency, I find this odd (but possible, I guess). Could someone who speaks German take a look at the two reports from 15.2.42 and confirm the possibility of 2 victories in 3 minutes for the given locations? I don't doubt it is possible at the moment.

By the way, Lancaster, this is why it is important to post as many examples of material as possible! We can compare and critique.... now Stefan has posted, can you please post your wartime Hartmann on the appropriate thread?? It would help us if you did so. Same for anyone else with a wartime Hartmann, please.

So, a number of points that I find confusing and odd. That does not mean they are fake, but I feel a significant sense of unease about much of the material I have classified in the BS set with the same style of sig. I hope there is a sensible reason for all these oddities. Keep cool, Stefan, keep cool.

[max history]

Jeremy,
You are absolutely correct of course and I apologize for allowing my feelings to run away with me. It was entirely in response to Stefan's posture that his opinion was correct and nobody else (especially me) had any idea what we were talking about. This is an excellent thread and as usual with threads such as these, there is a danger that they turn personal. This is something I wanted to avoid, but ended up being dragged into by Stefan's attitude. I want to make it clear that my disagreement with Stefan is solely about our differing opinions on authentic material and some of his observations. We will just have to agree to disagree. I have nothing against him personally and I'm sure he's a very nice guy (he keeps inviting me to his house!)
I think I have contributed enough on this subject and, in order to avoid any further misunderstandings, I will withdraw from the discussion.
Max.

[Luger-Hunter]

Good morning !

I read the comment about the scans I sent over.
There is an easy reason as an answere but do not expect, that
I tell everything here in the forum to people I don´t know in person!

Yesterday a friend of mine told me, that I shouldn´t write here
in the forum because some "leaders" or "godfathers"
like Max History etc. think that they are god regarding authenticity.

Max - do you really think, that I tell you absolutely all my sources?
I am an autograph dealer for 25 years and I post all my sources here
in an open forum. Are you really so stupid, that I will give out all my
secrets? I thought that you are more intelligent!
The combat reports are absolutely genuine - also the "Rollerlaubnis"
etc. Also the clipped item. If they are here posted in color or black/white
it doesn´t mean, that they are faked.

It´s a big shame, that Max History got here the position as the godfather
and everybody is listen to him. You should go to the Kindergarten. What
ever somebody is writing here - you are against and you are the expert.

Max - you have absolutely no idear what I have - what sources I do
use and what kind of collections I can use. You are in my eyes a
guy who has to be god on this forum and everybody has to listen to you.
Sorry, that I am here. Sorry - correction: that I was here!

I promise everybody that I have the proof for what I say. But sorry, I
am a bussynesman and I am not telling you my sources here in the forum.
Max - you are a jalousy guy and I will promise you, that I am not writing /
reading etc. any more in the forum. This is wasted time and energy.
My slogan is: die stupid if you don´t listen to what I say!

Why do I still stay in business - after 25 years dealing with autographs,
Max? Because I am a forger? Or because I am using faked stuff to make
money. What do you think who am I? And what do you think who you are?
Even if Marseille in person (that´s just a joke) will be here - you wouldn´t
believe anything except yourself. You write always that you such a good
man in the archives etc. But why doesn´t somebody from the big collectors
even know your name? I have enough from you and some of other
user here. I found some nice guys here - and that´s a shame why I cannot
continue here.

You are a very stupid guy and you think, that you know everything.
Once again - I don´t take any advantage out of what I posted here.
I tried to help. But some stupid guys like Max History - the
"godfather" of the forum will doubt everything what I post here.
What kind of advantage do I take out of what I say? This is nonsens.

I supply totally other customers than you will find here in the forum.
I reallized, that most of the time only the same let me say 10, 20 or 30 users
are writing/reading here. Those are not my customers. And I am sure, that
you haven´t got even the money to buy one or two Marseille´s.
That´s probably the problem for you. You cannot play in the high "league"

Max - we both had a similar battle some years ago.
Tthan I called you via phone and I remember that you appologize
after the conversation at the phone and in the forum.

You are asking why are they on color copies???
You didn´t listen. I wrote, that the combat reports normally exists up to
2 sometimes three times. Now they are faked, because I used color copies?
It does mean that the auction house Thies sold one or two years ago also
fakes? Because he sold the same kind of combat report? Does it mean, that
Thies is selling faked stuff? Max - you are leaning to much out of the window.

And Hüsken? He is selling same kind of combat report! Also fake? Max - is
everybody stupid except you? Are you THE man? The UPHUMAN?
Max - calm down and look for the signatures and don´t doubt in everything.
But I am sure because you don´t like my person. You did the same against
me some years ago when I wrote something about Michael Wittmann.
At this time I spent also hrs. to write here and you attacked me the same
way like the last two days. You should take some help.

So - that´s it.
I have enough from godfather´s here and I try to do some proper work.
In comparison to Max I have to work for my money. I cannot afford to
waste my time.

I am not willing to waste any more time here.

Best regards, Stefan

[Luger-Hunter]

Message for Jeremy

Hi Jeremy !

To be fair to you.

You asked why 2 "Schuldenfreiheitserklärungen" exists.
(if I understood your question correct)

Normally - and this is my last posting here - before a "Fähnrich"
was promoted to a Leutnant (to become an officer !)
(and I already wrote this before) he has to write
a paper that he is without any dept (Schuldenfreiheitserklärung).
This was a question of honor. An officer was not allowed that he
owes somebody money.

This paper was done normally between three and four times.

One copy for the personal file in the Geschwader - one for the file
the OKL or Reichsluftfahrtministerium - and at least one for himself
for his file.

The same was made for the last will, Verpflichtungsschein etc.


Best regards, Stefan

[Jeremy]

Dates

oh dear. Stefan, your post about Max was unnecessary and I asked that you didn't engage in personal attacks on this thread. Tedious now.

Ok, maybe Marseille did make 2 but they are identical in everyway, layout and hand writing. Like someone has spent time copying the other one precisely. The handwriting and layout is too precisely a match IMO.

Also, he wasn't promoted to Leutnant until effective from 1 April 1941. Over a year later from those two documents. Why would he write them a year before???

I have read the Bundesarchiv website and documents are only available to be looked at in the reading room. Documents come under the Federal Archives Act. You can't buy or borrow them but you can organise photocopies. So I wonder how you have original documents from that source?

http://www.bundesarchiv.de/index.html.en

I'll find out more about that directly from the Bundesarchiv on Monday.

[Luger-Hunter]

Message for Jeremy !

Once again --- and last time!

Jeremy - I already wrote that I am not giving away all my sources as I
am a dealer and not telling everybody where I got my stuff from.
Please read my last posting again.

If you think, that I will give all the sources here as a dealer out of my
hand to unknown people, than you are wrong.
Forget about the Bundesarchiv. Read my last email regarding sources.

And next is:
if you take a ruler and measure the lenghts (on my copies I do have here in
real size form), than you will see, that all the signatures are in a different legnth and hights.

As I mentioned - it is wasted time for me because nobody beliefs me anyway.
I don´t know why I reply on your last posting - but please do not expect any more comments from me after this posting.

You can contact the archive - but this will not change the fact, that the combat reports are genuine and each signature has variations. You didn´t even mention the "Rollerlaubnis" etc.

I think, that you and Max History would like to hear, that all I posted here is a fake. You and Max are the really nonbelievers. You believe only in yourself.

I suggest you and Max to stop collecting signatures as you will never trust a signature. I could use the ruler here and measure all lenghts and hights of the combat reports (and this has nothing to do if I have color copies or black / white copies). All signatures are def. different.

I think, that some of the users here needs always to talk about fakes. Even if they do not exist as many fakes as they think. But you, Max and some others needs probably to doubt everything. Is this possible, that you have to much time to spend and you and the other mentioned guys looks just for something to spend time for?

Whatever you or somebody writes - I will not response as I have to work for my money and I am sitting here to spend leisure time for people which will never believe me. Whatever I will post here - you, Max and some others will offend allways against me.

I am smart enough to stop this conversation and I will kick me in my ass, that I was so stupid to start discussions here.

Next time you, Max and some others will even doubt the authenticity of all the signatures I got in the past from the veterans over the years on my prints.
They are probably also faked. I am tired about this forum here. I could help - but this is the second time in this forum I got so many replies on what I bring here.
I learned from this and stop my postings here. I will do it like Craig Gottlieb and leave it like it is (read his last postings) because this will be a never endent story.

[Jeremy]

?

Please feel free to contact the archive (I will provide you the
adress and phone number).

I personally got the documents (copies) out of the "Bundesarchiv".
Max - I think, that you don´t even believe yourself. Those samples came all out of the archive in mid to end of the 80´s. I just posted here some samples of documents out of the archive. But I already expected, that you will doubt everything coming from me.

So now you didnt get them from the Bundesarchiv?? You lied, and yet attacked Max about not knowing anything about authentic document sources. That's poor.

I just asked you some simple questions. I don't think everything is fake. Once again, there are two types of signatures apparent in this and other threads. It's a concern. As a collector, I want to know what is good and what isn't. The two Schuldenfreiheitserklärung are suspicious .

Thanks for posting the material anyway.

[Jeremy]

yeah right

Been mulling over Stefan's explanation for what I said in my post about the "Schuldenfreiheitserklärung" with BS sigs:

Look at the two "Schuldenfreiheitserklärung" - means "without any debt", I have posted. One Stefan posted (#119) and the other is from earlier in the thread (post #50). They are dated the same day, with the same info with the exactly the same layout . Look at the '0' on the year. It is different, and also the catalogue numbering (17 on one, 14 crossed out and 16 added). I need to understand more about this document and it's use in wartime, but I find it very odd that we have two survivng the war from the same day in perfect condition which are essentially identical. This set my alarm bells ringing.

Now, Stefan's response is:

Normally ... ... before a "Fähnrich" was promoted to a Leutnant (to become an officer !) ... ... he has to write a paper that he is without any dept (Schuldenfreiheitserklärung)... ... This paper was done normally between three and four times. One copy for the personal file in the Geschwader - one for the file the OKL or Reichsluftfahrtministerium - and at least one for himself
for his file.

So, does anyone seriously believe that 'Marseille' completed two identical pieces of writing (in terms of precise layout and writing style) on the same day, at least a year before he needed them for promotion to officer AND they have both survived the war in perfect condition after being kept in very separate locations it seems and both appear to have found their way to one dealer?? A fractured fairytale.

[max history]

Bugger it! I think this thread is too interesting not to participate further. I hope we can remain polite and discuss the pros and cons of originality like adults.
In answer to Stefan's explanation of multi-signed pages (yellow text) and my response (white text), here is a good example of a typical visitors' book page. I can provide others.

Next thing are the multi signed items:
They exist a lot of guest books, photoalbum etc. genuine from WWII with blank sheets (first pages) multi signed by heros. This was very popular and absolutely nothing special, that a lot of members of a "Geschwader" etc. had guest books and claimed signatures in the guest books. I have seen this also very often with guest books of submarine commanders etc.
Also with photo album from the army with the first page multi signed.
Hotels, restaurants etc. did the same. They used also mostly the same pen.

You cannot imagine how many guest books were made in WWII and how many people claimed signatures in the guest books. Mostly with the same pen, because the got the signature personally while a meeting / visit / etc. in the squadron / airshow / special events / hotels etc.....
This is the reason, why you find - if you find multi signed blank sheets - so many signed with the same pen.

Guest and visitors’ books were extremely common before and during the war years. I have seen, and indeed have in my collection, numerous examples of autographs on pages from such material. Some entire pages were occupied by one single signature (usually a high profile important personality) whilst others were multi-signed. I do not have, not can I remember ever seeing, any genuine multi-signed pages where the signatures begin halfway down the page and where the top half is blank. Rarely (although it did happen) were all the signatures signed by the same pen. During this time most officers carried their own pen when not on active service and used it when necessary. In those days, fountain pens were a personal thing and most people used their own, preferred for various reasons. In existing films of personalities signing visitors’ books I have viewed, it can clearly be seen that the personality reaches into his own pocket for his own pen.

You can clearly see that the three signatures were written with different pens. Even the Himmler couple used their own pens!
Regards,
Max.

[max history]

Another example of an authentic multi-signed page where everyone uses their own pen.
Max.