Hans Joachim Marseille Signed Photo

[Jeremy]

More

A couple more from Wubbe for comarison

[Jeremy]

From another book

And here is another authentic one from Mein Freund Marseille by Dettman. Compare to other clippings with messages and the authentic one by WJW.

Just to illustrate that Marseille is not the only one, and that there is wide scale forgery going on, I will move on to Hartmann and start a similar thread.

[max history]

...Apart from WJW's private photo, everything else on this thread is fake IMHO. I expect Max and Ralf will agree with this....

Sorry, but I cannot agree. The signature in post #21 from Charles Hamilton is authentic. Also the Naumann combat report in post #30.
Max.

[Jeremy]

Yes

Ooppss sorry, Max is correct. Hamilton sig is certainly authentic.

[Jeremy]

One more

The latest fashion in modern clippings - note the date again...

[Jeremy]

Hartmann too

If you still have doubts about the views presented here then check out this thread I posted on Hartmann. It is much easier to show what is BS and you will notice strong similarities in the BS sigs here for 'Marseille' and for 'Hartmann'...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=514742

[Dark Angel]

I think that everything has been said regarding all the arguments and original pieces offered for comparison.
In the final analysis, everyone must now decide for himself, as to whether or not he ought to purchase pieces of doubtful authenticity should this be the case. We have now seen good pieces of comparable quality and heard all the relevant arguments concerning the doubtful genuineness of these pieces.

We know where these items originate and who is making them available. Everyone now should open his mind and make his decision, namely, either to return these pieces, which should be no problem for a serious dealer, or to be happy with them.

[Steven6095]

As a long time collector (18+ years or so), I am not an expert on Marseille's signature and I am not going to comment one way or the other toward the authenticity of it.

I will say though, if you look at the one that is in question, to me if looks like it was NOT signed on a flat surface.

Looks like it was signed while "he" was holding it in his hand
Combat reports, etc were likely signed on a flat hard table. This looks like someone handed it to him perhaps.

[Jeremy]

Signing

Steven6095, as you are a collector of many years, irrespective of not being an expert on Marseille sigs (who is?), I still think your views based on your experience are valuable to this discussion, so can you also comment further on these clippings which have appeared on the market.

Thanks for the thoughts about the nature of the signing.

[Steven6095]

I have purchased items from the gentleman in question before and I have been pleased. I don't have any doubt he is being honest with people.

Do I believe a dealer can get ahold of a bad item every now and then -of course! How many museums, etc have discovered fake items in their collections over the years (not just German aviation, but in general).

It happens. In my opinion one bad item does not ruin a dealer for me - then again the item may not be bad! I am not saying he has / is selling fakes. I don't think he is, but EVERYONE has sold a bad signature in their life.

Just saw a secretarial signed Walt Disney go for a pretty amount from a well known dealer on eBay. Honest mistake I can assure you. It happens.

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Regardless, as far as everyone comparing signatures, I am a bit perplexed by some of the comparisons. For example, Jeremy pointed out the thickness of the letters at various places. That is a legit concern, but if you look at it again, to me it was a different type of pen. Not just that, but if someone is going to forge a signture it is going to look right!

Sometimes those signatures that are not PERFECT have the best chance at being legit.
You also have to look at the signature in a time context.
For example: Over the course of the war, Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer had nearly a dozen different signatures all verifiable from combat reports, etc.
Signatures change. Try to date that signed card - by card publication date, etc and see if there are any reports around that time to compare signatures too.

You also have to think about how a signature was signed.
Take an index card and sign your name. Then take another index card and hold it in your hand and sign it. There will be a different.
More than likely - the signature will be signed slower and the areas that you normally press harder will be darker due to pen pressure against your hand vs a hard surface.

As for the clipping issue - I don't like that term - to me these are signed cards.
It is well documented that kiddos sent them to the pilots to be signed. It was a massive PR stunt and everyone on this forum knows that.
With that said - they are out there.
Granted very few people had the notion to start buying them up after the war...but they did exist and are out there.

As for paper aging, etc. I am also a framer focusing in conservation, etc. Papers from long ago are actually more stable a lot of times than modern papers. Less bleaching, less processing, etc. Same thing goes for ink.
I will spare everyone the technical details, but especially if the paper / signature has not seen light, a 1940 document could be in very nice shape.

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Is your photo authentic - I am not sure. I would not write it off on simply letter formation, etc. Too much not standard with it and not the normal flaws you may see in a forged signature.

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A master forger can make anything appear authentic. It happens folks and its out there. Autographs have to be approached with a lot of caution.

The decision in my mind does not come down to it if is authentic or not, but in your mind is it consistant enough with a known good signature, does the dealer have a good reputation and what does your gut tell you. I have returned autographs in the past simply because I can't say they are 100% forged, but I would rather have one I can be more sure about if it was authentic or not.

Know the singatures inside and out and you make the decision if it is good or not. Don't depend on anyone's word or anyone's CofA.

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Also, several of these signatures have the same date on them.
What happened that day during the war? Was it a slow day or did he see combat all day? Check the weather that day! Were the fighters grounded due to sand storms, etc. I don't know the answer to what happened that day, but if it was a slow day - why coundn't he have sit down and answered his "fan" mail ?? Better question why would a forger sign the same date over and over again? Copying a known good perhaps, but just something to think about.

[Jeremy]

Marseille

Thanks for the character reference for the dealer. There's plenty of people who don't want to face the possibility that they blew their hard cash on fakes (especially designer clippings). I can state the opposite, of course. Nothing gained I'm afraid. Not so interested in that side of things anyway. The interest is primarily in showing the BS out there, so some people wake up to the BS stuff.

You need to see (again?) the Hartmann thread and the BS clippings (feel free to disagree and provide an argument against the ideas I posted on that thread with examples) and then consider the Marseille clippings - from the same source, and Rudel.

Jeremy pointed out the thickness of the letters at various places. That is a legit concern, but if you look at it again, to me it was a different type of pen.

Yes, obviously a different pen, that is not the issue. Look at the nature of the signatures which are stated as good (I and others believe) in the Wubbe book and hamilton one, and consider the others believed to be BS - there are two types of signature which can be discriminated.

I'd be interested to see 12 different examples of Schnaufer signatures. That would make a good thread.

It is well documented that kiddos sent them to the pilots to be signed. It was a massive PR stunt and everyone on this forum knows that. With that said - they are out there. Granted very few people had the notion to start buying them up after the war...but they did exist and are out there.

Not disputing the existence of clippings, just that there is a difference between these 'modern' clippings and true wartime clippings. Look at Hartmann and Rudel threads - proper clippings not produced factory style - BS ones nearly all same paper, ink, and pristine. Same for ink on the Hoffmann's.


Agree about the forger, but they make mistakes - Ralf commented in the thread on the error in the combat report in the BS one (which has the same sig as other reports presented). Enough said - he showed us a "dumb faker". Once you find holes in the supposed authenticity of one item that is very similar to others then you can build a good argument against the BS ones (again refer to the argument I am trying to develop for Hartmann). Marseille is a problem as the BS looks good and abounds, so we think it's real as we see it so often - REAL Marseille are extremely rare... I believe most clippings for any personel are very rare. Look at Legends gallery, and all the drawings on clippings done, and clippings in framed prints. If we could build an inventory of all these sigs I expect we would know the scale of this BS stuff. The aviation print industry is driving the BS production to some extent.

So yes, agree completely, know the sigs well and don't depend on what a dealer says. That's exactly the point of these threads.

Re signing on the same day in September, it is mentioned in the thread that Wubbe points out and includes a postcard with stamp sig that Marseille was unable to send out signed clippings/cards cos he was busy fighting a war and pictures of him at that period show him in a state of exhaustion. The forger would not expect that all his stuff would be brought together on one thread... and there is sure to be plenty more stuff with collectors not accessing this forum

Anyway, thanks a lot for posting and sharing your views.

[Jeremy]

BS for the SS

And if you want to see more about the, I believe, BS clippings production line (preferred suppliers to the aviation art galleries), which I believe the Marseille stuff is part of, check this thread. You just won't believe it when you see it.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=509860

Good explanations for these famous SS people getting together and signing these two and the other clipping are welcome.

[Steven6095]

Jeremy don't know you and I have absolutely NOTHING against you. Just talking this out There are tons of BS signatures on the market. I am not doubting that at all. I am also not doubting for the least that the dealer in question may have sold something bad at one point. I just don't think all his stuff can be deemed bad. Too many people have purchased from him with know how and he has never been called out before. Same for the fact of how well he knew some of the pilots and a couple of the artist / historians he has worked with who are top notch folks.

I don't think there is a consipracy or anything. Just think it may be a matter of a few bad pieces bought and resold through that channel. If he / whomever will accept the Marsille back - great. What should be done with someone is not100% happy with a purchase.

I would not have one of the multisigned pieces in my collection.
I am not saying they are indeed fake, but more likely than not, they are not all authentic signatures. Two of them does not bother me in the least.
If by some miracle all those folks were together, they would have likely signed more than one thing. Send a poster through an autograph line and they usually all sign the same spots time and time again.
Again - I would not own one, but......

I will add this. A few months ago I asked the guy in question for a Udet signed card - blank not photo. The response back was that he was sorry, but had sold his last ones. If there was an autograph factory, that signature could have been done and sold to me.

And JUST PLAYING DEVILS ADOCVATE HERE
Why are signatures such as Kittel and Lent so rare?
The Kittel is work a bit of money, yet it is RARELY seen.
Wouldn't that be one heck of a good signature to copy??

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I'll tell you what frightens me - all of the rare British signatures that seem to appear as clippings for every print release.......

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There are TONS of BS. I recently went to a military show in Louisville KY and just walking around, it was ridiculous the number of fake autographs. Some were laughable, but yet these guys dealing in patches, etc did not know better and had big price tags on them.

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I'll see if I can dig up the Schnaufer signature guide.

Just had to post this

[Jeremy]

No worries

Yes, thanks again for your comments. Stefan has consistently refused to accept items for return unless unhappy buyers get an expert to authentic fakes - this has turned some people against him. That's his problem, not mine. But it is clear that the onus is on the buyer to determine authenticity and not on the seller, who can sell anything. Also, I didn't take it as you having a go at me, and I was merely responding to your comments. Don't you feel there is something odd going on here though?

People have their own take and divided opinions on different dealers. I don't want to bring any personal attacks on individual dealers into this forum. It serves nothing - but we should be able to comment on where we bought or saw stuff. They are merely mentioned here and in other related threads as having or having had items that are part of the discussion. They are free to say I am wrong and that I don't know what I am talking about.

Let me categorically state this - I have NOT stated anywhere on this forum that any dealer - korlin or frost at legends aviation or Aces High or Craig or whoever - has deliberately sold or is selling fake sigs. I don't want to get into that - we have seen where that leads, and would ask people not to engage in this. People need to make up their minds about who to buy from or not, and the agenda/motives of dealers. I am just showing material from these dealers and saying I don't like this or that for various reasons - it's just my opinion to support my views here. The same for people who posted combat reports here - I believe something is not quite right with them. It's just my opinion (some agree, others say nothing) which I am airing on the forum, and trying to show why I think that as this BS stuff has been around too long

Let's just focus on the nature of the material. I am just saying where examples I am showing have or had come from. We address other aspects at the same time anyway as we focus on that. I am less interested in where it comes from,as I said, but the whole point is, we agree that it is out there.

Your Udet example is not really a good one for me, other than you say "he had sold his last ones". How many did the dealer in question have?? Your implication is that dealers are in on this - I don't believe that at this stage. Here is my example - Aces High offered a print version of 5, each accompanied by a Wittmann signature matted and taken from a clipping, and on the thread below, we have 3 more of 'his' signature.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=509860

I am convinced there are more out there already. I have serious doubts about these sigs - see the Wittmann thread elsewhere. I have consistently said that the similarity of the paper, ink, and condition of all of these clippings is BS, compared to another type of clipping posted in the 3 threads. Like the clear differences between the two sets of Hartmanns on photo and clipping. Collectors with a lot of experience in identifying sigs have pointed out their views on the sigs. We then need to research each sig and find out for ourselves.

I use the term 'factory' to refer to the quality of the items not really the quantity - 10 BS ones for one pilot or tank commander etc is plenty anyway. The style and nature of these clippings has a consistency beyond what, I believe, is representative of true wartime clippings - see Hartmann and Rudel thread. We have looked at three people but Nowotny is another example. The fakers are clever enough to introduce into the sig selling arena a sufficient number and range to make a decent profit without drawing attention to themselves - common sense, but they make mistakes. No conspiracy theory, just based on what is coming to light with digging around. The power of the Internet is that we are beginning to see more and more items presented which we can draw links between and begin to get concerned. The 3 threads have shown this, and the identical diary pages on the thread I showed are also a great example of this.

Sorry, I disagree that we can say what is 'rare' and what is not, or define that term within this field of sig collection. Less than 10, less than 20?? We can never know how many examples are out there in the hands of individual collectors. Lent is an easy one to find. Not rare in my opinion. It is a sig that is easy for fakers and it is difficult to make clear decisions on those sigs. It is better to choose Hartmann to show the BS stuff. Kittel is not so common, I agree... but I haven't explored this avenue. I thought Witmann was 'very rare', and still do as I discount the 10 or more BS clippings out there. Nobody really knows why there are more of one sig than another. Some people were more prolific signers and others shunned the celebrity is one reason I have read. Galland signed 'plenty' (it's a relative term here) - he had stopped combat flying. Others were engaged in daily combat. Some have become of more interest to collectors than others.

I am sure if Kittel clippings were produced they would look the same and would sell easily to unsuspecting buyers... erh funnily enough, here are two - as easy as that... cough, cough . Seem familiar in style?? And I have another one on a photo.

Thanks again for posting. It would be good if others also did the same...

[Steven6095]

I don't have much to add. Nothing much more can be said other than finding definite proof one way or the other.

We all have different experiences, but personally I will continue to buy from the source in question in addition to other sources I have dealt with, but as always everything is on a piece by piece basis.

As for rarety - you are right with some people signed more than others. Some were more famous than others as well.

Udet for example was famous from WW1, traveled all over the world, more than a little vain and signed all kinds of stuff!

Rommel was well known and well signed as well ,but his is also a very simplistic signature to copy...


My Kittel is not as good as the scan shows.
It is on rougher paper and at one point was glued to a black piece of paper.
It is also only about 2 inches tall or so. Some bleed through to the black paper as well and the signature is a bit if not a lot more faded into the paper than the scan shows.

And I have to comment on this signature: IMO whomever signed the one on the left also signed mine. Be it Kittel or other.
1) Pen pressure is extremely common between the two.
2) The cross in the "tt" is at the same height between the signatures.
3) Pressure is greatly decreased coming on the up stroke of the L and increases on the downstroke at the same place.
4) The dot on the I is a VERY light touch in both signatures starting left to right.
5) The height of both tops of the K in relation to each other and in relation to the top right limb of the K.
6) The big thing for me - Kittel signatures most often always have a slight arch shape to them.
Both look like very natural signatures. The both hand signed mine and one of the ones you posted. The other scan is not high enough quality to fairly do.
Now someone post a KNOWN GOOD of him
The signature on the multisigned article, looks more purposeful. The loop at the top of the K is seperate, the T's are crossed a bit longer and a bit higher, the dot in I is a bit more controlled.
Could be a matter of him simply taking his time or this multi signed one was signed earlier or later than the two others or in a more formal enviroment. Scan would have to be much better before I could comment further.

Also - no comment toward this from me, but http://www.leisuregalleries.com/kittel.html has two signatures as well.