Hans Joachim Marseille Signed Photo

[max history]

Jeremy,
You are quite right to examine the type on the various reports as this also contributes towards the authentication process. Of further consideration is the actual structure of documents. When a document, such as a combat report, is typed by an individual, it is consistently of a uniform "design."
Note the indentation and paragraphing in the Wubbe examples compared to the alternative reports , including those posted by Luger-Hunter (Stefan). The Wubbe examples are consistent in the name and unit (top left) starting at the left margin. In the alternative examples, the underlining starts at the left margin, but the numbering is indented. The unit is centred. In the Wubbe examples, there is spacing between the "27" and the end of the underscore.
Also, the body of the report in the Wubbe examples is indented on the first line. In the alternative examples, the body of the report is justified (i.e. without indentation.)
Why would Marseille write the location as "Afrika" only two days after writing "Im Felde"?
Max.

[Steven6095]

Honest question here:

Who did the copies of the combat reports? How many copies were required - assuming more than one?

Would the pilot be required to type all of these?

Does anyone know a German pilot they could ask about the procedure for filing the reports or does anyone here know?

[Jeremy]

another one

And here is yet another report... 1000 Euros oooph. it didnt sell (photo also attached here).

http://www.zeige.com/cgi-bin/cat-art...uktionskatalog

"Marseille, Hans-Joachim. Berühmter hochdekorierter Jagdflieger, "Der Stern von Afrika", 1942 bei El Alamain tödlich abgestürzt. Schriftstück mit Originalunterschrift 1942. Marseille beschreibt seinen Abschuß eines englischen Jagdfliegers. Sehr selten !
Nr. 1034 II € 1000,00"

Max, I take your point, but some of the Wubbe examples not shown here are left aligned. However, none of the BS ones vary in this way so I expect they were copied from an example of a left aligned combat report.

The fact that the Wubbe examples and the BS ones were typed on different typewriters is beyond doubt though. Note also on this BS report sold by Zeige - the capital letters are the same as the other ones with a BS sig but different to Wubbe's combat reports.

[max history]

Max, I take your point, but some of the Wubbe examples not shown here are left aligned. However, none of the BS ones vary in this way so I expect they were copied from an example of a left aligned combat report.

I haven't had the benefit of seeing the other Wubbe reports.
At the risk of giving away too much, I doubt the forger even realized the type alignment was noticed. It is small mistakes like these that betray forgeries.
Max.

[Jeremy]

more and more

I found what happened to 5 more clippings... so many Marseille clippings... more wartime stuff than Galland??

this NT print Heia Safari had this edition (1500 quid) of 5, each with a rommel sig (hmmmm) and a marseille sig - leave you to check out the marseille sig... it's a bit difficult to see, but looks familiar... not for me thanks

and here is an interesting related thread from 2009 on ehangar

http://www.ehangar.com/modules.php?n...ewtopic&t=3143

my favourite comment is from Gary:

I know where there are 6 or 7 signed combat reports

[Jeremy]

two more

Stumbled across two more pristine pieces from the BS factory (I can't seriously believe all of these sigs survived the 3 more years of war in this perfect condition - does every collector now have one??) - familiar month... (when Wubbe points out Marseille wasn't signing, erh he was actually shooting down 5 aircraft and was flying missions through the day - see p197 of Kurowski book for details: at least 3 missions).

Should mention this thread is not dead yet... exploring the Bundesarchiv which will take a few weeks

[Jeremy]

One more

And another BS Marseille - one I hadn't seen before

http://www.cocollector.co.uk/shop/vi...h=12893&phqu=1

Update: now waiting for Bundesarchiv examples of Marseille sigs to arrive...

[Jeremy]

Omg!

Yes, thanks Mike and others who pm'd and emailed me. Not one of Trudgians best prints IMO, but I guess the print market has to be exploited before people (like those on ehangar) begin to wake up...

Here is the link:

http://www.nicolastrudgian.com/colle...lection_id=147

ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY EIGHT COMBAT REPORTS IN THIS EDITION... each released as a combat report becomes available... (3000 quid each). These combat reports by 'Marseille' will be worth 20 quid each soon.

This is where Frost from legendsaviation explains the potential availability of 158 combat reports:

http://www.ehangar.com/modules.php?n...r=asc&start=60

Specifically, this is how Frost justifies the availability of the reports which may be the same or similar, which was no doubt fed to him by Korlin, who supplies the reports. While this may have been the process, it does not in anyway justify the claimed existance of large numbers of combat reports for 'Marseille' which supposedly survived from the war (and come from one source):

On the subject of the combat reports there well may be more than 158 in existence, this is because during the war Luftwaffe rules dictated that their Fighter pilots had to personally Hand Type and sign a combat report for every claimed victory they achieved, this had to be done a least twice for every claim, one report went to their squadron and one report went to the Reich Air Ministry.

When the Reich Ministry were happy they had all the information and proof of the victory the pilot was then sent a Confirmation report, which he kept, this was then classed as a confirmed victory. Some high scoring Luftwaffe Aces decided when they typed out their combat reports they would do a third report which they kept for them selves.

So in some cases there were times when three copies of the same combat report could have existed. As in all cases of war after fighting during the day or night, and then having to type a combat report whilst suffering from severe Fatigue leads to mistakes and this is evident when you see some of the first and second copies of the reports, they are still Hand Typed and signed by the pilot but some have clear mistakes such as spelling and grammar etc.

And now for some barefaced lies from Frost to support the authenticity of the combat reports and other BS stuff on his website:

This brings us to the burning question on every bodies mind how are these combat reports Authenticated. ALL the combat reports that we will be offering for sale in this exclusive Marseille Archive edition have been fully Authenticated and Laboratory tested by a Renown German Third Reich Signature expert. He has a Doctorate in Third Reich History and Authenticates items sent to him from all around the world. He also authenticates all Third Reich items offered for sale through Legends Aviation Gallery.

So Mr. Frost -
Why did you edit your original post about the expert - I have kept a copy of the original post BTW?
Who is this 'expert' of yours?
What 'laboratory tests' did your 'expert' conduct?
How much did you pay him for each piece to be authenticated? Such authentication is expensive, and is why collectors cannot afford to get it done to prove that they were sold a fake by certain dealers.
Are you providing a copy of this authentication from the expert to each buyer?
Can you post an example of the authentication report by the expert for those on ehangar to see?

I said earlier in this thread that I wasn't going to comment on specific dealers, but Frost has gone too far in trying to claim that he has had these reports and other stuff authenticated by the said expert so he can try and sell his prints and clippings. I say it is a blatant lie, and this needs to be made clear to those on ehangar like Fuzzy who blithely accept this crap from Frost without asking any of the obvious questions above...

[max history]

Allegedly, these have all been authenticated by the Third Reich autograph expert:
(Source: www.legendsaviationgallery.co.uk )

[max history]

.....

[Luger-Hunter]

Jeremy and Max History

Dear users !

I am afraid because of the Libellous and Slanderous accusations that have been levelled at myself Stefan Korlin @ Finearts Autographs and
Colin Frost @ Legends Aviation Gallery by two members of this forum site Jeremy and Max History we have had know other option but to contact our Lawyers to seek legal assistance in this matter.

During this time period we have been advised not to answer any more questions on this subject.
Our Lawyer has advised us to inform Jeremy, Max History and Wehrmacht-Awards.com owners /operators to contact us at their earliest convenience to seek some kind of amicable solution to this problem to avoid any Legal action against them.

We are sorry if this causes any inconvenience to this forum site but we can not except these untrue accusations of lying.

Kindest Regards

Stefan Korlin and Colin Frost

[GARYCAMPBELL3]

I cannot sit on the sidelines anymore.

Jeremy and Max History, I believe you are onto something.

I have been a keen collector for over 15 years, mainly in the area of Aviation Art, and in recent years signed Allied/ German material.

It is my opinion, and I believe I am entitled to an opinion, is that the current quantity and style of Marseille items making their way onto the market is extremely suspicious and the hard questions should be asked of its suppliers.

I have not come to these conclusions via this or other forums. My suspicions came about through my own research. In the conduct of my regular google searches looking for new additions to my collection, I found that I was coming across more and more pieces of the style and quality of examples shown in this thread.

My suspicions are as follows:

1. The uniformity of the signatures. All the signatures are so similar and executed in an almost identical pen colour, consistency and style.

2. The shear quantity of items on the market showing that same similarity.

3. The quantity of 'mint' examples, particularly Hoffman cards etc.

4. The fact that these common denominators are present not only in Marseille items, but other similar items depicting famous flyers such as Richthofen.

For these reasons, I believe that Stefan and Colin should expect to be challenged on authenticity and should be concerned at the growing doubt amongst collectors.

I am the last person who would want these suspicions to become fact as I own several of the suspect items. The fact that I own one of those Marseille combat reports, I believe, entitles me to an opinion.

I have contributed to this forum in the hope that other collectors who have doubts are encouraged to step forward and voice their concerns.

[Jeremy]

Proof that Marseille combat reports are fake!

It’s taken a while, but here is some great hard evidence to support the informed opinion presented in the longer thread titled “Hans Joachim Marseille Signed Photo” ( http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=510951 ) - that the Marseille combat reports are very likely forged.

A world-recognised expert in Germany has analysed two Marseille combat reports (the two combat reports are shown in this post, but are of lower quality due to compressing them to under the forum's file size limits) and has stated they were not typed using a pre-1945 type writer, but were typed using a type writer from 1964-66 containing letter types that did not exist before 1964!! So, these two documents (at least) are FAKE combat reports.

Bernhard Haas works for the Landeskriminalamt (sort of state police) in Stuttgart and is an acknowledged expert in type written document analysis. Here is his website for you to take a look at:
http://www.schriftexperte.de/index.html

It details his expertise:

Publicly appointed and sworn expert at the IHK Stuttgart since 1988. A member of the JRC (Society for forensic Schriftuntersuchung). Co-operation with the University of Mannheim (Institute for writings and documents). Co-operation with the ASQDE (American Society Question Document Examiners) http://www.asqde.org/.

So, there are no doubts about his credentials if you care to check out his website. He is not a friend or colleague, but was employed to investigate the authenticity of the type written content on two Marseille combat reports, which were provided by collectors with the same concerns as many of us.
He was given high resolution scans of the two Marseille combat reports to analyse from two different collectors. He was paid to do this (140 Euro for each report including certification).

And here is the Haas report for both combat reports translated to English (see scans of reports in next post):

I. Order
The scanned reproductions of the two combat reports of Leutnant Hans Joachim Marseille,
dated 13. feb. 1942
and 27.feb. 1942
for which I was asked to prove authenticity-

II. Methods of examination
Physical and technical measurement of the type writing (u.a. stereomikroskopie)
Classifying of the typewriting machine with reference to a typewriter archive.

III.
Examination
The combat reports of Hans Joachim Marseille dated 1942 are identical and were made with one machine
which has the type writing type "Ro 1" (this means the type writer machine letters were manufactured by Ransmayer & Rodrian, Berlin).

Page 2
After researching in the archive, these types of letters were used in machines between 1964 and 1966.
These kinds of letters were mostly used in typewriting machines named Adler/Triumph which were produced in the year 1964.

IV.
Result
After getting all this information together, the result is that these combat reports dated from 1942 and the machine used do not match.
Therefore, there is no doubt that these two combat reports dated 13.feb.1942 and 27.feb. 1942 are fakes.

OK, so we have two FAKE Marseille combat reports which were not typed pre-1945, but were actually produced many years after the war on a 1960’s typewriter. And, very importantly, this confirms that the signatures on both the reports, and any similar signatures (which I previously labelled as the BS set in the other Marseille thread) are also very likely post-war FAKES.

And, coincidentally, as we have seen, Stefan Korlin has posted a combat report (and other material) which has the very same style of signature (see post #122 on this link - http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...rseille&page=5 ), and he has said it was authentic based on his 25 years of experience, etc .etc., but we can say (based on the evidence provided by Herr Haas) that it is very likely to be a forgery. Ooopsss… that would be embarrassing if that combat report was found to be post-war, wouldn’t it…

This issue of forged signatures also applies to any of the other material on that thread which has the very similar type of BS Marseille signature – clippings, Hoffmanns, short messages, Schuldenfreiheitserklärung, Erklärung etc. - it is all very likely forged! Just compare the signatures as I did earlier in that other thread. I think it’s as clear as day.

If you own a Marseille combat report which is like the two shown here, I suggest you send them to Herr Haas (he speaks good English, too, and is happy to help after he returns from vacation in 2 weeks) and employ him to confirm its authenticity. If he finds they are fake, ask about getting your money back from the dealer who, knowingly or unknowingly, sold them to you – a reputable dealer should have no problem with refunding your money in the face of such expert evidence.

And I wouldn’t buy the new (158 combat report) special edition of the Marseille print by Trudgian if it comes with a combat report which matches the two that we now know are forgeries. Colin Frost (Legends Aviation Gallery) and Korlin might like to employ Herr Haas, seeing as we know Frosty was forced to remove the false information about their combat report (and other material) authentication source from his ehangar post, and they don't have any recognised expert to verify the 158 combat reports they are offering with a Trudgian print...

So, we now have very good evidence from a very reputable government and expert source to support what many of us have suspected for a while, and which has been the whole purpose of the informed discussion to bring it out into the open – a lot of the Marseille material out there is very likely forged. You can draw your own conclusions as to the source of this forged material from the postings in the previous Marseille thread – see also the following threads:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=515434

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=509860

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=514742

Anyway, as we all know, the production and/or selling of forged wartime documents is a criminal offense...

[Jeremy]

Original report on fake combat reports

Just to show this is for real, here are the 2 pages from Herr Haas in German detailing what was translated in the previous post.

[Jeremy]

Some comments to consider

Thanks guys, this has been a team effort.

And I would like to draw your attention to some comments made by Stefan Korlin on ehangar about designer clippings shown on this thread http://ehangar.com/modules.php?name=...ewtopic&t=1342 which are very relevant. Stefan says:

All the items are without any doubt (also the items [designer clippings] shown here) genuine and every collector who has experience and knowledge about the german signatures knows, where I am talking about.

They are a lot of people which are not in the business with german signatures does not know, where they are talking about.

If you compare the shown signature here with WWII combat reports etc. you will see in a second, that all the signatures are genuine.

Once again: All the signatures shown here - with Robert Taylor drawings are absolutely genuine. If somebody has and doubts, he could contact me directly and I can send him hundrets of proofs for where I am talking about.

As Stefan suggests, please compare the signature on this clipping below with a Robert Taylor drawing, which Stefan refers to as authentic in the ehangar thread, with the signatures on the fake combat reports.

It seems clear to me that the two fake sigs on the combat reports and this one are almost identical signatures (note the ink features, too) from the same hand, and, therefore, IMO it is also very likely a forged signature on the clipping. There is very certainly more than sufficient doubt about the authenticity of the clipping's signature through making this comparison.


So, as experienced and knowledgeable collectors of German signatures, it appears we know what we are talking about, and our views have been supported by hard evidence of what is fake, and it seems that in this case Stefan does not know what he is talking about, despite having "hundrets [sic] of proofs". And so, one must seriously question the authenticity of other such clippings with artist drawings on the same ehangar link for Rudel, Nowotny, and Rommel which Stefan claims are authentic...