Help needed with sigs

[Zoilus]

Hi all,

my first post and hopefully it'll be an interesting one... I have just bought the papers shown below from Aces High Gallery in the UK. My understanding of the provenance is that it comes from one of the honour books (not sure what they're really called) that friends of colleagues had made for a person's birthday or award ceremony. I have no idea who this book was for but it has been split because it is worth more to sell the pieces separately.

I can identify the signatures of Kraus, Sepp Dietrich, Wittmann, Peiper and Freuy but not the other two, though the top one looks like Ludwig - I hae no idea who he is. Can anyone help?

Thanks in advance.

Z

[VtwinVince]

Below Hugo Kraas is Teddy Wisch.

[Gran Sasso]

I can identify the signatures of Kraus, Sepp Dietrich, Wittmann, Peiper and Freuy

Not "Freuy", but Frey (Albert)

[Zoilus]

Thank you. I have tried to find the Ludwig person but cannot. I have been told he received the KC but he doesn't seem to be in the 1st SS division.

Z

[hucks216]

There is no Ludwig in the W-SS listed in the Ordenstrager for winning the RK, just 2 in the Heer and one in the Luftwaffe.
I wonder if instead of the first letter being an L it is in fact a B, similar to how Generalleutnant Karl Burdach signed his name shown here, or it could even be the letter S. Do you have a close-up of that signature?

[hucks216]

I have found 2 Ludwig's in the Fuhrerliste as having served in LSSAH:

Karl Ludwig -
SS-Rottenfuhrer 15./LSSAH Jan 1941 &
SS-SS-Untersturmfuhrer 5./SS-Pz.Rgt 1 Jul 1944

Helmut Ludwig -
SS-Sturmmann 20./LSSAH Jun 1941 &
SS-Obersturmfuhrer SS-Jagdverband Mitte Feb 1945

[Zoilus]

Does this help?



It looks similar - is it a signature of a nickname?

[hucks216]

Maybe it is the signature of Rudolf Sandig but hopefully someone who has an example of his signature will be able to confirm or dispel that one. He was with LSSAH and won the Knights Cross in May 1943.

[Zoilus]

Thanks Hucks.

Having read other threads my next question has to be about the authenticity of the document and whether or not it is genuine (or as genuine as anyone can tell).

Thankfully I have a refund guarantee so fire away!

Z

[hucks216]

No idea I'm afraid. Unlike award citations there isn't any other factors to help determine. You will need to post better photos of all the signatures and hope one of the signature experts pops along to see the thread.

[markus]

The 'Ludwig' signature is a 'Sandig' alright.

Personally I have never been a fan of these multi-signed
papers. The are offered for sale on a frequent basis.

This combination of autographs does not make too
much sense time/history-wise. In particular, I don't like
the Peiper, Wisch, Wittmann, nor the Dietrich signatures.

My advice: Return and take money to collect each signature
seperately, but 100 pct original.

Only my opinion though.

[Zoilus]

The 'Ludwig' signature is a 'Sandig' alright.

Personally I have never been a fan of these multi-signed
papers. The are offered for sale on a frequent basis.

This combination of autographs does not make too
much sense time/history-wise. In particular, I don't like
the Peiper, Wisch, Wittmann, nor the Dietrich signatures.

My advice: Return and take money to collect each signature
seperately, but 100 pct original.

Only my opinion though.

All opinions are valid, but can you expand on why you don't like the signatures mentioned and the time/history sense? I'm asking as there is always the possibility of a very "good" fraud.

Z

[Dark Angel]

I agree with Markus, get your money back.
These kind of "autographs" has been discussed in the past here in the forum.
They are most questionable and come original from one dealer in germany.
These multi signed papers has always enough room to get a drawing on it.
Thats very unusual.
Also the signatures dosen't match at all.
I am sure the autographs experts like Maxhistory or frankandfrank can tell us more about it.

[markus]

Z.

PM sent.

Markus

[Zoilus]

Z.

PM sent.

Markus

Thanks Markus,

I have replied but it was bounced back as you are at your maximum number of messages. The text is below:

Hi Markus,

thanks for your reply. I am currently leaning towards returning the item but as I want to keep a good relationship with the gallery I want to give very good reasons for the return. Apart from your comments, what else is wrong about the item?

Best wishes

Z