12th SS Pz Div HJ - Commander 01.09.1944?

[Oberbootsmann]

Hello. I've got a question. I've always believed that SS-Brigadeführer Fritz Kraemer commanded the 12th SS Pz Div HJ from Oct. 24th 1944 until Nov. 13th 1944.
Now I ran into a document which had been signed by him on Sept. 1st 1944.
How's that possible?

Regards

[MarcRikmenspoel]

Kurt Meyer was in command of the division until captured by the Belgian resistance on September 6, 1944. Meanwhile, the wording around the signature on the document seems wrong. My first thought is that this is rather badly-done fake.

[Simon O.]

That's assuming the doc was actually signed on the 1 Sept.44

As this is one of the 3 main dates when long service KVKs were awarded, the date will refer to the date of the award in orders, the actual doc might well have been typed up and signed days or weeks later as and when the situation permitted.

[SJP]

That's assuming the doc was actually signed on the 1 Sept.44

As this is one of the 3 main dates when long service KVKs were awarded, the date will refer to the date of the award in orders, the actual doc might well have been typed up and signed days or weeks later as and when the situation permitted.

I agree w/ Simon . Awards for Normandy were given out in late October /November at ceremonies when the divisions were being reconstituted.

I have a LAH grouping w/ the same KVK document & date signed by Mohnke.These divisions were in full retreat having both lost or soon to be there CO's at this date.

The document looks good to me.The stamp is identical to EK ones I've seen signed by Meyer & Kraas.
It would be nice though to see another Kraemer signed piece for comparision.
__________________________________________________ ___________
Cheers Steve

[markus]

I think I have a Kraemer in my collection, but am not sure
right now. Let me re-check. Reverting asap. Markus

[markus]

Just got home and rechecked.

Unfortunately I don't have a Kraemer, but only a Hermann Priess
flying around. Sorry.

[MarcRikmenspoel]

I forgot to mention, why would it have "Der Kommandeur der 12. SS-PAnzer Division" above the signature? The documents I'm familir have the rank and position below the signature, and usually without the name of the formation.

Thus I would expect this to have the date, below it the signature, and below that, "SS-Brigadefüher und Generalmajor der Waffen-SS und Divisionsführer" or some variation of the last part.

That's how the many documents reproduced in Mark Yerger's books appear. I can't swear that every document ever was composed that way, but I have a box full of copies of documents from the Berlin Document Center, and all that I can recall are the way they appear in Mark's books.

[Simon O.]

You're right Marc, it is unusual but not unknown. Ideally we'd need to see other HJ KVK2 docs from this date.

[Oberbootsmann]

Thanks so far for the interesting posts. I hope we gonna solve it.

Regards

[SJP]

Lah

These documents were issued after Normandy (mid September/November 1944)
as the Divisions were being rebuilt.
__________________________________________________ __________
Cheers Steve

[SJP]

Hj

Kraas
______________________________
Cheers Steve

[SJP]

You're right Marc, it is unusual but not unknown. Ideally we'd need to see other HJ KVK2 docs from this date.

Simon NDR but he's wrong. As a researcher/author he should know better
__________________________________________________ __
Cheers Steve

[Simon O.]

Simon NDR but he's wrong. As a researcher/author he should know better
__________________________________________________ __
Cheers Steve

No he's right. Having 'Der kommandeur der **** division' above the signature is not what you normally see on a division issued KVK. Of the 27 KVK docs i have to members of the heer (i didn't count my LW and KM), not one single divisionally issued doc has that title above the signature. Go above divisional level and you see it sometimes, but the point is, different divisions did different things and that's why i said we needed to see other docs from that division, issued at division level from around the same timeframe.

[MarcRikmenspoel]

I've seen a lot of documents over the years, and the one in question looks fake to me. I hope I'm wrong. Where's the LAH expert who splits his time between Germany and Mexico? He ought to weigh in on this.

[Oberbootsmann]

I guess we don't need an expert here. Just check the rest of his documents.

Regards