SS -lot E-Stand with questions

[Oberbootsmann]

Hello. I have some questions regarding the SS doc lot selling at the E-Stand:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...d.php?t=493898

1. The Long-Service-Award doc is for a "SS Gruppenführer" which is a Generals rank at the "Allgemeine SS" (05. Oct. 1940).

2. The "IAB doc" is for a "Unterscharführer" (01. April 1941).

3. Six months later (03. Oct. 1941) he is awarded the medal "Oct. 1938" as a "Rottenführer".

All those documents had been awarded to a "Fridolin Riegel".

1. How can he be a "Gruppenführer" (= Generalleutnant WH) in 1940?

2. How can he be a "Unterscharführer" in April 1941 and a "Rottenführer" in October 1941? A "Rottenführer" ranks lower than a "Unterscharführer"!!!


The documents seem to be absolutely authentic. Has someone an explanation for all this?

P.S.: I have informed the seller about this thread.

Regards

[Hank C.]

The 'Rottenführer' may refer to his rank at the time of the act, not the time of the award. Obviously, if he's getting the medal for '38, he was active at that time. It may have been awhile before the paperwork was done.

Just my thought.

best
Hank

[Simon O.]

Hank is right, the rank on the oct.38 doc refers to his rank at that time, not his rank when he eventually got the doc.

Gruppenführer is an ss rank, it's not particular to the allgemeine-SS and is correct for Hausser at that time.

[Oberbootsmann]

Gruppenführer is an ss rank, it's not particular to the allgemeine-SS and is correct for Hausser at that time.

Thanks so far for your answers. But I've been searching the web to find a hint if there was a lower rank "Gruppenführer" in the SS what would explain it but couldn't find anything.
It always was a Generals rank and nothing else. Check the SS ranks here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_a..._Schutzstaffel

So my question again: how can this soldier be a "Gruppenführer" on the award doc?

Regards

[Simon O.]

Ah, i see which 'gruppenführer' you mean now.

it's a position as well as a rank and you'll find it in use throughout German military and para-military organisations.

[Oberbootsmann]

Ah, i see which 'gruppenführer' you mean now.

it's a position as well as a rank and you'll find it in use throughout German military and para-military organisations.

We are talking about a rank on a "SS Long Service Award". Do you really think that they would use a "position" instead of his real rank on such a document?

Regards

[hucks216]

In this case is it being used in a generic term (as a leader of a squad, or gruppe) rather than an actual rank which is what I think Simon means by it being a position?

[Oberbootsmann]

In this case is it being used in a generic term (as a leader of a squad, or gruppe) rather than an actual rank which is what I think Simon means by it being a position?

Of course Simon want to us exactly this but why should they put someones position instead of his rank on such an award?

Regards

[rickenbacker]

riegal group

hi all, as I stated in the description .these documents are featured in formans standard ref books on the subject ,so I have no reason to suspect that these docs are not genuine, I have asked myself the same question regarding the rank on the 4 year medal citation ,the only thing that I could think of was that he was a combat gruppe leader within the structure of the 16th pi komp ,however your collective thoughts are appreciated best regards rick

[hucks216]

I agree, there is nothing wrong with the group as far as I can see. As to why Gruppenfuhrer was put on the citation, who knows why the typist put it on there when they were getting the citation processed and to be honest it doesn't affect this nice group one bit.

[max history]

This group of documents is entirely authentic and correct. Simon is exactly right when he refers to Gruppenführer in this case as a position, rather than a rank. I have seen a number of award documents showing such a position. The SS rank is "SS-Gruppenführer" and not just "Gruppenführer." Although some items are in poor condition, this group is a superb collection of authentic signatures. The Hitler and Meissner signatures are of course both printed.
Max.