EK1 award document

[Tom Yanacek]

And Brian R. makes a good point about the look of the Iron Cross motif as well as the printing in general. Maybe just a bad scan here but I don't think so. Also notice how the Iron Cross motif has no shaded effect to its frame. Look at any real Iron Cross document and compare the motifs. The difference will be very noticeable.

Best regards,
Tom

[AUSGANG]

So this is a fake. Pity, I was really hoping to get a denazifed EK1 and document together. Just goes to prove again that no matter how much one hopes and believes, one has to accept reality. Believe the item and not the story, as they say. Thanks all, saved me 100 euros....

[Brian R]

The thing I have learned about award documents, as compared to collecting any other type of German militaria, is that the history and accuracy of the units related to the actual doc are generally the key to determining authenticity. This is something Simon has stressed over the years and he couldn't be anymore correct. But I can't help the fact that I just don't feel good about the actual design of this doc. While there were countless variants of EK docs throughout the war, there seems to have been absolute consistentcy in the design of the "first type"; which this doc is an example. I just don't like the feel of this doc - I don't like the way its printed and the fact that the EK motif lacks "shine".

Now, the history of the unit is the real issue here, and the point that all sorts of units were committed to the fighting northwest of Stalingrad at the time is a good one. But, its the combination of all these things that make me nervous about about this citation. This strikes me as one of the rare occassons where the actual doc, as opposed to the details, is a negative factor.

Here is the commonly encountered design...

[Simon O.]

Hello Russ,

Yes, but even if the Feldpostnummer happened to be a match to Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 110 the document would still be bad because the eagle ink stamp needs to match to the singing authority, not the specific unit of the recipient. The eagle ink stamp shoud be of a Divisional Command because it is signed by a Divisional Commander.

Best regards,
Tom

Tom

You're correct in principle. However, in some cases you can find other stamps in use in specific circumstances, for example in times of chaos following a retreat with units smashed to pieces and the regular structure, not to mention office equipment having being lost.

Given the time and what the 11 Pz.Div. was doing nov\dec 42 the division could be a potential candidate for this type of situation. It was originally mentioned that the division was in reserve at the time, a closer look reveals that this was far from the truth. Rushed down from one sector of the front to the Stalingrad sector.

[Simon O.]

The thing I have learned about award documents, as compared to collecting any other type of German militaria, is that the history and accuracy of the units related to the actual doc are generally the key to determining authenticity. This is something Simon has stressed over the years and he couldn't be anymore correct. But I can't help the fact that I just don't feel good about the actual design of this doc. While there were countless variants of EK docs throughout the war, there seems to have been absolute consistentcy in the design of the "first type"; which this doc is an example. I just don't like the feel of this doc - I don't like the way its printed and the fact that the EK motif lacks "shine".

Now, the history of the unit is the real issue here, and the point that all sorts of units were committed to the fighting northwest of Stalingrad at the time is a good one. But, its the combination of all these things that make me nervous about about this citation. This strikes me as one of the rare occassons where the actual doc, as opposed to the details, is a negative factor.

Here is the commonly encountered design...

Those are very good points Brian, as you say in combination all those red flags add up.

What i'd really like to see now are a couple of examples of EK docs from the division, preferably the regiment from the same time frame.

[Russ Schulke]

FP numbers with same five digits - odds 70,000 - 1 ?

Tom, I only made a comparison about the FP numbers on the stamp and the FP numbers of the unit. Note: the lol

With all the possible FP numbers out there and this document and the unit have the same five digits.

What are the odds 70,000 - 1 ? Again LOL !


Russ

[AUSGANG]

as we say in nz: Bugger!

but good to see you are looking at diversifying your collecting portfolio Ausgang after all, there cant be many denaz EK1's that you dont have

Aw man, I missed out on a few lately but I'm still looking!

[Tom Yanacek]

Tom

You're correct in principle. However, in some cases you can find other stamps in use in specific circumstances, for example in times of chaos following a retreat with units smashed to pieces and the regular structure, not to mention office equipment having being lost.

Given the time and what the 11 Pz.Div. was doing nov\dec 42 the division could be a potential candidate for this type of situation. It was originally mentioned that the division was in reserve at the time, a closer look reveals that this was far from the truth. Rushed down from one sector of the front to the Stalingrad sector.

Thanks, Simon! As always you are very informative.

Best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

Tom, I only made a comparison about the FP numbers on the stamp and the FP numbers of the unit. Note: the lol

With all the possible FP numbers out there and this document and the unit have the same five digits.

What are the odds 70,000 - 1 ? Again LOL !


Russ

Sorry, Russ and thank you for the clarification.

Best regards,
Tom