DK document on e-stand

[Mark C. Yerger]

I'm not a document expert regards fake or real.

But this one on e-stand doesn't even resemble any of the 15-20 Waffen-SS formal DK documents I've seen that at the time were still owned by the original recipient.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=464236

I'd welcome comments or being educated further

[Eric JB]

Mark,

That document looks odd to me, except for the round stamp and the signature, the entire document is printed at once including the man's rank, name, unit and date.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan

[Mark C. Yerger]

All I was shown by award holders had some aspect of name/rank/unit done by hand

Agreed, looks like all printed at once

[DKig]

the typing, (not handwriting version) is not a problem on the doc. dated the year of 1944,
maybe the lamplight gives us "type at once"... the seal and siganature are
good to me, but the name is not listed in DK list. it should have not neglect the awardee who served in a famous diviision. but I will be serious to the document, it is just a paper but worth a huge amount,
if not definately proven originality, I would pass it, not risk of big losses of money.

canny

[Mark C. Yerger]

the typing, (not handwriting version) but the name is not listed in DK list.

canny

Vorschlagsliste

[DDD777]

My opinion, the document is post war fake, based on original blank.

1 The handwriten DKiG BU Heer and SS doc's 1944 are starting from (+-1day) 20.01.44.

2 The seal for DKiG VB and BU used from OKH in this time period is different, with gut known and well distincstive defects on the oval!

This is min the 3 attempt to sell this doc for the last mounth!

[DDD777]

the typing, (not handwriting version) is not a problem on the doc. dated the year of 1944,
maybe the lamplight gives us "type at once"... the seal and siganature are
good to me, but the name is not listed in DK list. it should have not neglect the awardee who served in a famous diviision. but I will be serious to the document, it is just a paper but worth a huge amount,
if not definately proven originality, I would pass it, not risk of big losses of money.

canny

The signature and the seal are made in after 2000.
The guy is listet everywhere, but this is not the cunning of the fakemaker's.

[haudegen]

Hello

To all the self-proclaimed experts and know-alls! Please see: auction Hermann Historica Number 58, October 2009 Lot No 3210Is this perhaps is a Fake! Why is everything always without justification spoken badly?

Regards

[Eric JB]

Hello

To all the self-proclaimed experts and know-alls!

Regards

H.

I did have a look at all what is written here in this thread, and I see no where that someone is calling himself an expert or know-alls.

Eric-Jan

[Eric JB]

Lot Nr.3210
An award document for the German Cross in Gold
for SS-Hauptscharführer Gutberlet
Large format decorative award document with gold printed order star for SS-Hauptscharführer Adam Gutberlet, company commander of 11.(GP)/SS-Pz.G.R.4 "Der Führer" dated 1 June 1944 with service stamp "Oberkommando des Heeres" and signature in ink of Keitel. Folded, reverse minor adhesive vestiges.
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=standardfett width=148>Condition: II+</TD><TD class=standardfett width=136>Limit: 2000 EURO</TD><TD class=standardfett width=85>

</TD><TD class=standardfett align=right> 2600 EURO </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

http://www.hermann-historica.de/gb/i..._auktionen.htm

[DDD777]

Hello

To all the self-proclaimed experts and know-alls! Please see: auction Hermann Historica Number 58, October 2009 Lot No 3210Is this perhaps is a Fake! Why is everything always without justification spoken badly?

Regards

1 You can take a look, most often I’m spoken pleasant things, but not in this time unfortunately.
2 The fact of transit across a well named dealers is only a theorem needing a proof and not a axiom .
3 If the doc is so good moving forward, then i would like just to draw attention to the next buyer:
a) to compare very well the seal of this doc and the seals of good known OKH seals from this time period and almost till end of the year
b) to compare very well the Keitel's signature
c) to compare very well the drawing of the name of the hero on the blank with a another ,,printed,, 1944 DKiG BU Heer or SS
d) to find a ,,printed,, DKiG BU Heer or SS early 20.01.44 (the end of 1941 ,,printed,, DKiG BU's are not in counting)
4 We all are people, we all can make mistake’s, but this is my (and not only my) opinion and I have a right to speak it out.

[haudegen]

Hello


Please excuse my bad english
Obviously aynbody can say what he wont. But it should be factual and to know. It is a pity when good things are spoken badly. It was simply asserted something that is not true.
a, it was said: The institution is not listed! This is wrong, the carrier is listed in the literature.
b, it was said, all the DK- documents are hand written. ,This is wrong, there are many early and 1944 "printed" document. (See the book by Dietrich März)
c, stamp and signature are not correct. Please see the book by Dietrich März.
d, the document is fake Post War, based on original blank!. How are we going in a printed document (in a handwritten document I understand it still, but when printed?
Everything about the document ist ok.

Regards

[DDD777]

a) about not listed, this was info from DKig, some post's later i show where namely is listed, but this is not so important in this situation, 80% of good post war single doc's fakes are ss, gd, hi awardet officers ... etc.
b) ,,All I was shown by award holders had some aspect of name/rank/unit done by hand'' - post from Mark
I approve that the return date of typed documents is after 20.01.44 ...
In Dietrich's book i don't find DKiG BU Heer 1944 typed
c) In Dietrich's book you can't find a big scan's of OKH 1944 seal.
d) Just believe me, more simple that ,,hand written''.

[andrewb]

I would be very careful with any formal DKiG award doc with the name and details that is not hand written.

This is what I would be looking for.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ig+document+ss

Regards,
AB.

[DDD777]

I would be very careful with any formal DKiG award doc with the name and details that is not hand written.

This is what I would be looking for.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ig+document+ss

Regards,
AB.

My opinion, the problem is not in handwritten or printed.

Printed BU's was in Heer and SS till end of 41 and start again from the beginning of 44, this is a fact.

The problem’s are that in this period (end of the 43 and the biggest part of 44) the right hand of Keitel and the OKH seal was not changed. And this is not a joke.

Concrete about the DKiG BU from Wilhelm Huber:

1 The changing date (hand/typewritten) was between 20 and 27.I.44, not early!
2 Pls. compare the seal’s on Wilhelm Huber (post war fake) and August Gosch (very nice and original war timed piece) doc’s and you feel the difference!

BR
DDD

PS: But I’m 100% consent with you, everybody must be a very careful with DKiG BU's Heer and SS 1944 typewritten doc's!