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**W Petz** · 03-03-2004, 01:20 PM

Black Light Test

Alex,

Personally I don't put much trust in black light testing. Especially in photos where chemicals are involved in the process. As for other items that have been "washed" they will also glow under a black light but it doesn't mean they are fakes/copies ...the idea was to clean the item and current day detergents will make them light up like a christmas tree. There are many other methods to determine originality....unfortunately for photos that is limited....you have to know the kind of paper of that was used during that period. Modern day paper is easy to spot due to the logo used and the stiffness/consistancy of the paper. I'm sure others especially those who specialize in photography will be able to add more depth to analyizing the differences in paper. Bill

**AlexV** · 03-06-2004, 10:44 AM

Anyone else

**Erich B.** · 03-06-2004, 10:53 AM

photos/black light

I have a large number of period photo albums, loose photos, documents, etc. and I always check the photo paper to see if it glows. I've never had a glow with an original photo.
Erich

**AlexV** · 03-06-2004, 04:19 PM

I forgot to says that the one I have (wich glows) is a studio portrait printed on postcard paper...

**VerKuilen Ager** · 03-06-2004, 04:41 PM

I'll come in between the two previous observations. I'm enormously skeptical about the UV test with regard to W.W. II cloth items, particularly where synthetics are concerned and, as mentioned, where the item might have been washed with modern detergents. However, I also have a decent accumulation of period ephemera (mostly U.S. and German), which includes many photos. I recently tested about 500 pieces and didn't get a glow out of anything from W.W.II.

One thing I find is a good idea is to keep something of a control standard nearby when testing. Sometimes simple reflectivity suggests flourescence when it really isn't. So, I just keep a sheet of modern paper (a simple piece of typing paper will do) next to the other material. The new piece will glow like a beacon and provides a visual comparison to the old material.

**David C** · 03-06-2004, 04:58 PM

I'd never thought of blacklighting photographs, hmm,.. I'll have to dig them out and give it a go.

**David C** · 03-06-2004, 05:32 PM

Well half an hours messing about later and I'm quite happy to recommend the black light test for detecting original WWII photographs.

Most photos tested did not glow at all. Some exhibited a very slight glow but nothing compared to the blinding modern control sheet.

What did I discover?

My 8"x10" of V1s at Cuxhaven "got it off an old soldier honest guv" lights up like a christmas tree.

The deactivation certificate for my Bren gun is, like the Bren, totally inert, paper, print and hand written ink do not fluoresce at all and it is dated 2003!

I conclude that the test is valid for old photographs but, as with cloth items, expect the odd anomaly.

Cheers,
David.

**VerKuilen Ager** · 03-06-2004, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by David C

expect the odd anomaly.

Good point. What we have to remember is that this isn't anything like carbon dating. What we're testing for are brighteners that have been put in the paper pulp at the mill. Evidently, this didn't become common practice until well after the war (I'm slowly testing other dated items I have to see when things really started to "glow"). However, recent efforts at making the papermaking and recycling processes more environmetally friendly have caused a decrease in the use of certain types of brighteners in manufacturing and the use of chlorine and other bleaches in recycling. So, some modern papers may not react to UV either.

**AlexV** · 03-06-2004, 07:09 PM

Heres the answer I've got by the seller who sold me the pictures:

The pieces were purchased from a very good friend that specializes in PCs as well as studio photos. In my opinion both piece are origiinal period pieces. Thier is nothing that would indicate that they were not. The UV test is a method widley used on paper as well as ribbon bars to distinguish pre 1945 pieces from post 1945 pieces.Keeping that in mind, it is by far only one small piece of the process of authenticating a war time piece.
In the case of cloth items their were materials used during the war that would florece, not widly used but did exist. I wasr time piece of cloth washed in post 1950 detergents will make an original example glow under UV light.
In reference to paper, the the UV test is best used on documents and PCs, studio portraits use a little different critera with a small gray area given to the different chemicals used in the process. I have in my personal collection studio Luftwaffe cards that will glow and are 100% original as they came as part of an estate buy from the original family.
Now, to put you at ease, I have been an amatauer photographer for 25 years as well as develope my own piceture, well I used to until digital came along. My father is also owenes a printing comapany and is a master printer, so we have often discussed this topic on paper and chemicals processes used during pre-1945.
Final thought, never a problem to return a pice for a full refund.
That is really about all I can share with you in regards to the piece.
Other than on the modern copies, meaning post 1950, they are rather easy to detect, using a 10x or 20x loop the grain content,black and gray scales, and type of paper ( fiber content) is the easiest way to tell an original from a post war piece.

**Chip Hopkins** · 03-07-2004, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by TheWolf1

Heres the answer I've got by the seller who sold me the pictures:

The pieces were purchased from a very good friend that specializes in PCs as well as studio photos. In my opinion both piece are origiinal period pieces. Thier is nothing that would indicate that they were not. The UV test is a method widley used on paper as well as ribbon bars to distinguish pre 1945 pieces from post 1945 pieces.Keeping that in mind, it is by far only one small piece of the process of authenticating a war time piece.
In the case of cloth items their were materials used during the war that would florece, not widly used but did exist. I wasr time piece of cloth washed in post 1950 detergents will make an original example glow under UV light.
In reference to paper, the the UV test is best used on documents and PCs, studio portraits use a little different critera with a small gray area given to the different chemicals used in the process. I have in my personal collection studio Luftwaffe cards that will glow and are 100% original as they came as part of an estate buy from the original family.
Now, to put you at ease, I have been an amatauer photographer for 25 years as well as develope my own piceture, well I used to until digital came along. My father is also owenes a printing comapany and is a master printer, so we have often discussed this topic on paper and chemicals processes used during pre-1945.
Final thought, never a problem to return a pice for a full refund.
That is really about all I can share with you in regards to the piece.
Other than on the modern copies, meaning post 1950, they are rather easy to detect, using a 10x or 20x loop the grain content,black and gray scales, and type of paper ( fiber content) is the easiest way to tell an original from a post war piece.

With regards to the "grain content", does anyone know or if Alex, aka, 'TheWolf1' can find out, for pre-1945, should the grain be finer or coarser?

Also, anyone have any ideas on where or what kind of place to find and obtain a black light to do testing? Thanks,

Chip

**CSP** · 03-07-2004, 11:47 AM

WalMart sells black light bulbs. Mine is kaput, but look in the houshold goods/utility section of your local Super Wal Mart and I think you will find it. Screw it in a lamp...darken your room and you will see what glows and does not. Some "militari magazines" and dealers will sometimes offer more like a hand-held version like a flashlight. For me the 'blacklight test' is nothing conclusive - more of an interesting test that if it DOES NOT glow, you can feel good, but if it soes, that does not mean the item is bad. I am convinced beyond doubt that floresents were used in the war...as well as waaaay before it - in cloth items. I collect photos too, but am still in the learning stage on post war versus wartime. Some post war are very obvious, but old paper is used to print wartime negatives, post war as well. The test may be better on paper than cloth. I just do not know for sure.

**VerKuilen Ager** · 03-08-2004, 08:44 PM

Some random thoughts:

The seller of the photos sure sounds like he has the expertise to do some lab work.

It's unlikely that anybody would be able to do a postwar photo printing job on old paper. The chances of finding old paper that's still sensitive are about nil. Theoretically, you could recoating old paper, but you'd really have to know what you were doing and have a decent lab. Here in Rochester, NY, half the people up and down the street work at Kodak. I even know folks who work in the testing labs and they tell me that it they wouldn't want to try it at home.

It's always been something of a rule of thumb that photo grain increases with speed. However, this could vary by manufacturer and when it was made. Anyway, I doubt any of us here would have the means or data to accurately date a photo on the basis of emulsion grain. Even the folks at Kodak couldn't conclusively date the "alien autopsy film" and they had all the old manufacturing data and the expertise for a scientific appraisal of the film stock.

Handheld, battery-operated UV units can be had on eBay about any day of the week. I think I paid about $15 for one (including shipping) about 6 months ago. It includes a regular bulb so you can switch to a regular "white light" flashlight when you're stumbling around in the dark. One advantage to these small units is that you can haul it around with you and piss everybody off at shows by insisting on testing everything in sight.

I had one of the screw-in lightbulb types from a hardware store but it didn't work all that well. There appear to be a couple of different UV wavelengths and the the lightbulb type works well enough to light up pschedelic posters in a kid's room, but you need the flourescent tube type for the kind of work we're talking about here. I think the screw-in bulbs are probably a conventional incandescent light bulb shining white light through a coated globe that tries to filter out most everything but the UV. The result is a weak output. Could be wrong, but I think the flourescent tube types (whether handheld or shop light size) have the appropriate gas in them so that they emit UV from the get-go, giving a much stronger result.

**Chris Taylor** · 03-09-2004, 03:11 PM

You can use a Black Light on photos? Who knew??
That's why I love this forum!

Anyway, I've got several hundred loose photos plus an SS Geramnia/Nord Album with a about 150+ photos in it.
So after reading this thread, I took the black light to all of them using a piece of printer paper as my control, (the same way I check cloth items).
Well, all of them passed the test with flying colors, except for 2 SS postcard portraitsthat lit up like a neon sign, & you'll never guess where I got those from?

Wait for it......

That's right EBAN!!

Just when I thought the only relatively safe thing left there was photos!

When the Hell an I going to learn???

**AlexV** · 03-09-2004, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by Chris Taylor

You can use a Black Light on photos? Who knew??
That's why I love this forum!

Anyway, I've got several hundred loose photos plus an SS Geramnia/Nord Album with a about 150+ photos in it.
So after reading this thread, I took the black light to all of them using a piece of printer paper as my control, (the same way I check cloth items).
Well, all of them passed the test with flying colors, except for 2 SS postcard portraitsthat lit up like a neon sign, & you'll never guess where I got those from?

Wait for it......

That's right EBAN!!

Just when I thought the only relatively safe thing left there was photos!

When the Hell an I going to learn???

A UV glowing photo dosen't mean all the time that photo is repro/post-war read one of my replies carefully:

"...the the UV test is best used on documents and PCs, studio portraits use a little different critera with a small gray area given to the different chemicals used in the process..."

In cases of postcards, I think they must not glow...

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