I believe this the the 3rd Panzer Division bear.
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Last edited by James Tainton; 02-20-2004, 01:26 AM. -
10th Panzer Division
Are the x's kill marks- never seen that before
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This is Panzer-Regiment 35 (4.Panzer-Division), the same as the unit from one of the earlier album (Pz.Rgt.35 - III/Pz.Rgt.15 - Pz.Abt.52).
What makes this photo truly remarkable is: take a look at the road wheels of the Pz.III Ausf. F at the right (225) !
Originally posted by James TaintonI believe this the the 3rd Panzer Division bear.
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Yes, 10.Panzer - Panzer-Regiment 7. The X's are most probably the battles it participated in - note the dates along the X's.
Other photos show Panzer-Regiment 2 (1.Panzer-Division - small dot along the turret numbers) and yet other units. This group is unlikely to be from one man (possibly from one family or from a Kriegsberichter).
Originally posted by James Tainton10th Panzer Division
Are the x's kill marks- never seen that before
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I'm not sure of the origins of the photos whether Bill got them from one person or if its a composite of loose photos. Bill should know.JimOriginally posted by Akira TakiguchiComment
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Another Grouping of Panzer Photos
Hi Akira,
You and Jim got it right it in that this lot of photos were singles and not from the same person. I have photo holders and fill them up with interesting Panzer shots that I have picked up separately. Jim has previously listed photos with the statement that this group or photo album came from one man and if not then its randomly selected shots. I hope you enjoyed them anyway. Bill
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Hi Bill,
Enjoyed? That word is not fitting enough to describe my statusI hope you enjoyed them anyway.
The Tauchpanzer from 14.Panzer is another excellent find - years ago we knew only those from 4. and 18. Panzer. These days we know that there are a lot more Tauchpanzern distributed among Panzer-divisionen, like 3., 9., 10... But I remember having seen one from 14 Panzer at most once, possibly for the first time.Comment
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Well that is interesting- I was not sure and still am not sure about this bear. The reference I have says ("Panzer Colours II" - Bruce Culver) that it is from 3 Panzer division. His blurb beside his photo (which, remarkabley has a shot of another Tauch panzer III with the number 221,cool!)Originally posted by Akira Takiguchi
"This photo is an excellent example of the temporary markings that can cause confusion. This Tauchpanzer III diving tank is in Pz Abt (T)C. a special unit formed to use diving tanks for amphibious invasions. Formed from personel of the PzRgt 6. 3 Panzer Division, this unit was temporarily attached to 4 Panzer Division for training for "See Lion", the invasion of Britian. The Pz Rgt 6 bear is red and white,221 is yellow, and the 3. PD sign is an inverted "Y" and two bars, has has been modified by adding a third bar. (Bundesarchiv)"
Some of the ideas put forth in this work are held in some doubt (yellow Balkan crosses and numbers for example)
so I don't know???? - have you heard of this confusion of the bear and the temporary assaignment to 4 Pz Div.
Here is the pic that the text was referring to - I have added as an inset, the 225 markings from Bill's grouping for comparison....
Also a close up of the book image of the 4th Pz marking- it does appear to have an added stripe.??? Your thoughts A.?
Last edited by James Tainton; 02-20-2004, 12:39 PM.Comment
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Panzer Colors series was a great monument in the Panzer-lover's history. Unfortunately it had rather not a few inaccuracies based on pure speculation.
I loved the three books, I still love them now, but it's not a reference book of today's standard. Look at the photos, not the text.
One of the authors, late Bill Murphy, once had a detailed errata list at the AFV News site (unfortunately the article is no more), which of course included this. He was a very sincere researcher and had balls to accept the errors in his books in public. A great man!
After Bill's death, somehow the books were reprinted by a publisher --- BUT IN AN UNALTERED STATE --- It is a shame that these were reprinted without any comments added (which, had Bill were alive, would not have been done!), generating victims like you.Comment
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Well I don't really consider myself a vicitim- on the contrary- I 'm merely a seeker on the path of historical discovery. I did state with my last post the questionable source that Panzer Colors may be. Perhaps Obee Wan, you can enlighten us eager apprentices to a more accurate source of information?generating victims like you.Comment
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Use the original documents, Luke!
That is why I left book-only world and entered the never-ending quest for original photo & documentation.
There is no such thing as one accurate source of information!
Herr Schmitz and Herr Thies have been publishing Die Truppenkennzeichen.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=11127&p=80790
Being mixture of original information and earlier published works like Panzer Colors, not a few errors are found in it. Still, without this book, one does not have any ground for research, these are MUST to have.
Volume 4 corrects many errors in earlier volumes, still not perfect (and adds new errors).
Well, of course, do not take my words as truth-only (on the contrary! I have made many mistakes in the past, as many as Panzer-colors). Use your clear mind when you read anything, and if something does not sound right, you may be correct! Then search the original documents! Only that way you can approach the truth.Comment
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Ha ha made me laugh...Thanks-good link to required reference material. Glad there is someone like you that can teach with such enthusiasm. Where for example do you get the information for the above bear insignia?- That is was from the fourth and not third - I don't dispute it, I just like to know the root of things - like you.Comment
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Before answering your question, a photo to describe my other point in that message more clearly with a picture (left - ordinary Pz III / right - Bill's pic):
Originally posted by Akira TakiguchiComment
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Known facts, that can be confirmed in books and available photo material (including great albums of Bill):
1. No known photos show this style of bear together with 3.Panzer emblem (inverted Y with two squares).
2. The bear was used throughout 1945 by Panzer-Regiment 35 (attached is the regimental history - "221" in the center).
Therefore, it can be without reservation that "Panzer-Regiment 35 used the standing bear as its insignia." However, by logic, the reverse, "The standing bear was not used by any other formation." cannot be proved with these two facts.
As far as I know, nobody has explained in publication why Pz.Rgt.35 chose bear as its insignia (maybe just I am outdated or being a lazy reader - I am not so into Pz.Rgt.35). Later in the war a commander was nicknamed Bärenführer (leader of the bears) but this just means the commander was leading "bears". You may be able to find something new in this matter.
Interested?
There are so much unexplained things left (otherwise I quit this hobby
).
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Found a link to a page with the Panzer Colors corrections
Panzer colors corrections
This grab from it confirms your judgement on da bear.
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