Superb e boat grouping

[hucks216]

Having done a quick search on the web the few that I have been able to find of these 'decorative' type of Schnellboot urkunde all have the 's' at the end of the word schnellboot regardless of date of award or flotilla .
Does someone have Forman's Guide To Third Reich Docs to hand to see what spelling the similar variants in there have (and dates of awards)? I am working away from home and don't have my copies here with me at present.

[hucks216]

Having managed to get hold of a copy of Forman's Guide To Third Reich Docs there are 4 such E-Boat citations shown, all with the spelling Schnells and 2 of which are dated for December 1940, this time both to members of the 1st Flotilla including one to a future RKT.

[Leroy]

I would be very interested to know how these documents came to be issued in December, 1940, for a badge which was not authorized until May, 1941.

[hucks216]

I wonder if, when the award came into being the citations were backdated by the flotillas (possibly with authorisation) to when the individuals qualified for the Destroyer Badge in the first place? All the 1940 examples have the same authorising signature of Grossadmiral Dr Raeder (stamped/facsimile or hand signed). Or was the qualifying period backdated when the award was institued? Either way the December 1940 dated citations are certainly out there.

[Simon O.]

hucks is on the right track though the signature is that of Bütow, Führer der Torpedoboote.

The destroyerbadge was specifically introduced as a result of the invasion of Norway and specifically the Narvik operation. If you look at the dates of when the Narvik destroyers badges were awarded, they are all on the 16 Oct. 1940 yet the badge was instituted in June. ie. there is a gap in time between institution and the administrative wheels getting around to authorising it and then the guy at the end actually getting it. The Norwegian schnellboot badges are dated to Dec.40, ie. 2 months after the Norwegian destroyers. The august 40 extension to cover schnellboot crews was also 2 months after.

The award date you see here is when the crews were granted the destroyer badge. some got that, the early awards like Rudolf Petersen others got the schnellboot when it came along but the point is the date reflects when the award was granted to the men of that flottilla on paper. You see this form of dating on a good many German awards, most commonly the ostmedaille.

[Simon O.]

I should also add that the Schnellboot and EKII are connected to the Norwegian operation. the EKI for later operations in the channel

at the time of his DKiG award he was leading machinist on the S-104
Later on, in Dec.42 he became the flottilla engineer of the 8 S-Flotille.

[Leroy]

The destroyerbadge was specifically introduced as a result of the invasion of Norway and specifically the Narvik operation. If you look at the dates of when the Narvik destroyers badges were awarded, they are all on the 16 Oct. 1940 yet the badge was instituted in June. ie. there is a gap in time between institution and the administrative wheels getting around to authorising it and then the guy at the end actually getting it. The Norwegian schnellboot badges are dated to Dec.40, ie. 2 months after the Norwegian destroyers. The august 40 extension to cover schnellboot crews was also 2 months after.

.

This is still confusing. If the "Narvik Destoyers" were finally all awarded in October, 1940 (4 months after the badge was created) and S-Boot crews had already (in August, 1940) been declared eligible for that same badge, as a result of that same operation, didn't S-Boot crews actually receive the Destroyer Badge in October, 1940, for that same operation, as well?

Why would a badge (the S-Boot Badge), authorized in May, 1941, have an Urkunde (illustrating the badge) retroactively dated to December, 1940, unless
those awards were for S-Boot operations after the Narvik operation?

The "award/creation" situation is a real dilemma. Remember that at least 3 Luftwaffe pilots actually received, and wore, the Oakleaves and Swords decoration, months before that award was even created on paper (a complete reversal of what we see here with the S-Boot/Destroyer situation).

Is it safe to say that some S-Boot crewman actually received the Destroyer badge (for Narvik operations) in October, 1940, and then, after the S-Boot badge was authorized in May, 1941, received that new badge, with certificates retroactively dated December, 1940, for separate and distinct operations after Narvik?

[Simon O.]

I guess i didn't explain it well.


Destroyer badge instituted june 1940 ...first awards october 1940
extended to cover S-boot crews involved in Norwegian campaign Aug 1940...first awards dec. 1940

You see the pattern?

Also, the S-boote involved in the Norwegian operations were all down in the south of the country, the 1 and 2 flotillas. None were involved at Narvik.


The 'Norwegian' badges are pretty easy to identify because they were awarded on the same dates. This goes for the Narvik shield as well as the destroyer badge. To a lesser degree also EKs.

Talking of Narvik, you see a similar effect with the shield. Instituted in aug 1940, the first batch of awards are dated 10 Nov. 1940 for the KM and Heer. The LW are from late Jan. 41 to March.


just because you see a date of Dec. 40 on the doc doesn't mean the individual's paperwork and badge was actually done then. i think you see a clue to this in the fact that the awarding authority for both badges was the F.d.T and both urkunden are of the same decorative design. Awards to crewmembers of the torpedoboats involved in Norway are also dated to Dec.1940 and the award was extended to them in oct. 40. Off the top of my head i cant recall seeing a destroyerbadge doc to an s-boot member, but they could be out there. Much more common to see dec. 40 dated s-boot docs.

[Leroy]

Thank you, Simon! Much clearer now.

[Patrick W]

Simon- that is great information, thanks so much for sharing that it really provides some history about the man behind these documents.
Guys many thanks for the posts, this has been a very informative discussion for me