SS Hermann Fegelein documents and Hitler/Himmler signature

[tystgaard]

Very nice documents... for about a year ago I where very close to buy these two documents. The price where as i remember about 5500-6000 dollars.
There where also a wedding pic of Fegelein in the lot. Seems authentic I think...
He said it have not been on the marked in many years and part of a big collection of all kind of documents. If ok I believe the value to be much higher. I had some trouble making a banktranfer and lost my nerves becourse I am no expert in these documents. Back then i did not think of making a tread here. It where sold right away after i cancelled. Any opinions!!!!!, where it my luck that i cancelled or did I pass on a fantastic deal.

Nicolai:-)

From www.historyinink.com

[crfraser]

They look fine to me but I don't think you missed a "deal." Maybe an opportunity if you really wanted them?

Colin

[John Pen.]

I like them, but I always defer to Max History.........I hope he's along shortly.
That was alot of $$$, but probably worth it. There are IMHO better deals for these type of items out there for that kind of $$$, but it is all relative, I guess, to personal preferences...... I wonder what the final price was.
Jp

[max history]

Although I'd like to have a closer examination of the Hitler document, they appear to be genuine items. However, I think Colin is quite right. I wouldn't have paid that much for them.
Max.

[JoeW]

Looks like the right margins have been cut off a bit. Are these from the cache taken from the BDC way back when? Can anyone check Fegelein's SS officer file on microfilm to see if these particular documents were microfilmed at one time?

I was wondering if this is a dead issue with the German Federal Police and Interpol? Is there still a search for this and potential prosecution?

[max history]

Looks like the right margins have been cut off a bit. Are these from the cache taken from the BDC way back when? Can anyone check Fegelein's SS officer file on microfilm to see if these particular documents were microfilmed at one time?

I was wondering if this is a dead issue with the German Federal Police and Interpol? Is there still a search for this and potential prosecution?

The right margin on the Hitler document is correct as von Herff's initials appear in the bottom right corner, where they should be.
As for the BDC thefts, I think it was more the US authorities that were intent on recovering documents stolen from the BDC. The German authorities do not seem to have the same will, as many ex-BDC documents appear now on auction and dealer sites quite openly.
I don't think these were BDC documents as they are more the formal documents issued to the recipient as opposed to file documents.
Max.

[Hundestaffel]

It's no secret that some of the most "important documents" (however you personally wish to interpret that is your own perogative) that survive in private hands today were indeed "liberated" from a multitude of Document Centres, Archives, etc......just not by a GI in 1945....


"Hundestaffel"

[John Pen.]

At today's prices some archives in Europe must have billions, or more, of euros worth of documents in their collections. It would be hard to track them all with hundreds or even thousands of researchers "having hands on" access to them.

Remember the guy in D.C. that got busted with docs in his socks? And that was just a cover up, supposedly for W. Clinton.....not a collector/addict/dealer!

Jp

p.s. "supply and demand" is a very interesting and dominant factor in any market.

[Simon O.]

John, going by the national archives in London, it'd be very difficult to get anything out of there.

[Hundestaffel]

While these documents may not have "originated" from the BDC (although that would be easy enough to confirm) each of these documents (especially the 2nd doc) clearly exhibit unmistakable characteristics of having been "liberated" from a Personnel File.

That said, the probability that this Personnel File was assembled by the recipient of these documents as a "Personal File", and kept at the recipient's personal residence, is zero.

Both documents clearly have a "dark side" to them, and I'm not referring to their SS connection either...


"Hundestaffel"

[max history]

While these documents may not have "originated" from the BDC (although that would be easy enough to confirm) each of these documents (especially the 2nd doc) clearly exhibit unmistakable characteristics of having been "liberated" from a Personnel File.

That said, the probability that this Personnel File was assembled by the recipient of these documents as a "Personal File", and kept at the recipient's personal residence, is zero.

Both documents clearly have a "dark side" to them, and I'm not referring to their SS connection either...


"Hundestaffel"

I think we are all interested in the clear and unmistakable characteristics on both documents to which you refer. Maybe you could also explain your statements of the zero probability of a personal personnel file and the clear "dark side" of the documents? Please explain.
Thanks in advance,
Max.

[Panzer Rob]

Based on what I can see from the scans, I'd be willing to throw down my hard earned money on these.

To touch on what the Canadian with the big yapper said many of the higher end documents, Ausweis, etc. in collections today came onto the market because they were stolen out of various archives throughout Europe and the former Soviet Union. I've heard of instances where a collector would be working on a research project for a SS member, acquire a copy of said SS member's personnel file from say NARA and in that file would be one of the very documents he had in his collection...

I often wonder if a archive, upon proving that a document was actually stolen from their files, could go after a collector and demand that the document be returned. Say collector "x" posts a document - one of these - on the internet and a representative from the archive from which the document was stolen sees it... Can they go after the collector and legally "re-poses" that document, even though the collector did not know it was stolen and may be the 5th or 15th owner since it was taken?

Rob

[Edward]

Can anyone say with absolute certainty that those docs did not come out of the BDC?

It is known that the theft of a large amount of original documentation which was stolen came from the BDC's main collection of SS records/personnel files. That the documents in question could have previously belonged to such files in the BDC should not be ruled out.

[max history]

These particular documents are typical of those that were given or sent to the person concerned, who retained them. One can often see a private family Nachlass which includes documents such as these, some obviously still retained by the family. The Nachlass von Eberstein included such documents before his daughter-in-law sold it off some years ago. The photo albums from this Nachlass can still be found in the Bavarian State Archives, but the personal documents, such as promotion and appointment Urkunden, were broken up and scattered to the four winds. I had the opportunity to purchase the Nachlass, but the value was much too high for me. I believe Kai Winkler ended up with the majority of items and he put them in Wolfgang Hermann's auction where most were sold individually.
I am in contact with the children and grandchildren of several SS Generals who still have the exact same documents as these Fegelein pieces in their family. I have even had the good fortune to be allowed access to one family Nachlass and I was able to look through a ring binder which contained such documents. The family is adamant that they will never sell or allow copying of the documents.
I also know of several documents such as these in private collections which were bought direct from the person named on the document.
These two particular Fegelein documents may well have been kept by the Fegelein family (possibly Gretl Fegelein) who then decided to sell them in later years, but I am speculating. Another group that was sold by the family about twenty years ago was the Richard Hildebrandt Nachlass. This included all his promotion and posting documents (from Obersturmbannführer, I think) and they were very similar to these. Nearly all the documents I have seen like these two were never in an official archive and one can assume that they appeared on the market legitimately having been sold by the person concerned or his family.
During my many visits to the BDC, I saw very few original documents like these (probably counted on one hand) in the SSO files and those I did see were usually for men deceased prior to the last months of the war. The more common practice was for a copy photo (obviously not a photocopy, but can't remember the exact name, and sometimes in negative) of the said document to be placed in the file.
I would say it's almost certain that these Fegelein documents were part of the Angolia purchase of Fegelein's personal documents that came from the family in the 1970s.
Max.

[Edward]

These particular documents are typical of those that were given or sent to the person concerned, who retained them. One can often see a private family Nachlass which includes documents such as these, some obviously still retained by the family. The Nachlass von Eberstein included such documents before his daughter-in-law sold it off some years ago. The photo albums from this Nachlass can still be found in the Bavarian State Archives, but the personal documents, such as promotion and appointment Urkunden, were broken up and scattered to the four winds. I had the opportunity to purchase the Nachlass, but the value was much too high for me. I believe Kai Winkler ended up with the majority of items and he put them in Wolfgang Hermann's auction where most were sold individually.
I am in contact with the children and grandchildren of several SS Generals who still have the exact same documents as these Fegelein pieces in their family. I have even had the good fortune to be allowed access to one family Nachlass and I was able to look through a ring binder which contained such documents. The family is adamant that they will never sell or allow copying of the documents.
I also know of several documents such as these in private collections which were bought direct from the person named on the document.
These two particular Fegelein documents may well have been kept by the Fegelein family (possibly Gretl Fegelein) who then decided to sell them in later years, but I am speculating. Another group that was sold by the family about twenty years ago was the Richard Hildebrandt Nachlass. This included all his promotion and posting documents (from Obersturmbannführer, I think) and they were very similar to these. Nearly all the documents I have seen like these two were never in an official archive and one can assume that they appeared on the market legitimately having been sold by the person concerned or his family.
During my many visits to the BDC, I saw very few original documents like these (probably counted on one hand) in the SSO files and those I did see were usually for men deceased prior to the last months of the war. The more common practice was for a copy photo (obviously not a photocopy, but can't remember the exact name, and sometimes in negative) of the said document to be placed in the file.
I would say it's almost certain that these Fegelein documents were part of the Angolia purchase of Fegelein's personal documents that came from the family in the 1970s.
Max.

Good info. Makes total sense that the personnel office involved during the war would have made photocopies while forwarding the original to the service member.