Show your KZ related photo's

[SiPo]

I know they are extremely rare, but I thought I'd try and start a thread on KZ related photo's.

It can be any pic related to the KZ featuring uniforms, insignia, buildings or structures etc.

Pictures from Soldbuchs/Wehrpass' are allowed as are vets pics of the camps directly after liberation.

Here is one to kick it off.

[Chris D.]

Quite the interesting assortment of insignia

[PZIV]

Some of these will get quite gruesome. I have many from G.I's after they liberated the camps. I'll post some up after I mark them.

[peterm]

Very interesting photo ! Do You know, where and when it had been made ?

Regards, Peter

[Hundestaffel]

Graham:

Simply a Fantastik and Most Impressive photo to start things off here...

"Hundestaffel"

[SiPo]

Very interesting photo ! Do You know, where and when it had been made ?

Regards, Peter

Peter, the date of the photo has to be later than 27.6.44, which was the date of Himmler's order authorizing the use of the double armed swastika tab.

Unfortunately, there is no location noted on the pic. Maybe forum members would like to have a guess at this based on the background?

With regards to the background, what is causing these strange shapes? Is this a snow covered hillside, or is this how a hill full of fir trees in a forest looks like at a distance. Being a city dweller, I'm not too up on country scenery and I think the background could be the key to unlocking the mystery location.

[harmel]

kz pics

Very nice pic,I believe some of these men are Estonian,perhaps
part of 20th Waffen Gdr Div.
Harmel

[max history]

It's probably staring straight at me, but, apart from the ages of these men and the fact that some are wearing TK collar insignia, what is the evidence that this photo is KZ related please?
Thanks,
Max.

[SiPo]

Hi Max,

It's the collar tab.

In May 1944, Himmler gave the go ahead to the transfer of 10,000 soldiers, NCO's and officers to the KZ system. These were old reservists or foreign serviceman no longer deemed suitable for the frontline. Himmler stated that as these would not be able to meet the criteria of the Waffen SS, they were not eligible to wear the skull tab.

On 27.6.44, Himmler stated "I order that for the duration of the war, the guard units of the concentration camps....universally wear the double arm swastika as a badge on the collar patches."

This pic came with another postcard sized portrait of the chap at the bottom right, wearing a Wehrmacht uniform so we know this chap had to be one of these transferred reservists although he IS wearing a skull tab. Because of this, it is evident that Himmler's order was not followed to the letter, which accounts for the mix of insignia. I believe this photo may show a newly trained/qualified intake of these reservists after KZ training and the only true TK guy is the chap in the middle who was probably their instructor.

[max history]

Thanks for that explanation. There is also a possibility that these men were W-SS admin. staff as older men were also used in these roles.
I think I see four TK collar insignia.
Max.

[peterm]

Hi Max !

Yes, it's not sure, but I believe that g. hanson is right in this case.
I have a soldbook of an old Austrian Feldwebel of WWI, who never saw action in WW II, but was transferred at the end of the war (against his own will) to concentration camp personnell of KL in Ebensee (belonging to Mauthausen in Upper Austria). There were very few (active) men of a real SS-Totenkopf-unit. All the others looked like the men on g. hansons photo.

Regards,

Peter

[N.C. Wyeth]

Hi Max !

concentration camp personnell of KL in Ebensee (belonging to Mauthausen in Upper Austria). All the others looked like the men on g. hansons photo.

Regards,

Peter

Peter,

Funny that you mention this KL (Ebensee) - that was my very first impression of where this photo was taken! Although I doubt we could ever be sure, my bet would be that this is indeed, Ebensee. After spending time there recently, the trees and the mountainous background in the photo bring back a memory of just such a place . . .

[SiPo]

There is also a possibility that these men were W-SS admin. staff as older men were also used in these roles.
Max.

Yes, that is a possibility however, the majority of the admin role within the KL's was undertaken by the "old guard." Many KL admin NCO's had spent years within the camp's becoming well accustomed to the specifics of the KZ system.

Most of these 10,000 extra troops that wore the double armed swastika patch were taken in for sentry duties as the need arose due to the increase in prisoners for slave labour.

In Auschwitz alone, 500 of these older or partially disabled soldiers unfit for the front line, formed the 4th Wehrmacht training company (4. Wehrmacht Ausbildungskompanie) in August 1944. After several weeks training, they were inducted into the SS and in September 1944 they were renamed the 8th KL Auschwitz SS sentry company (8. SS-Wachkompanie).

Some of the old guys in the pic may have been admin staff but are just as likely to be NCO's of Wachbataillons/Wachkompanies.

The fact that some of these guys wear skull tabs does not necessarily mean that they were not part of the Wehrmacht reservist intake like the others in the pic. A point worth noting is the response by SS-WVHA, SS-Gruppenfuhrer Pohl, to the initial Himmler decree regarding the tabs worn by these reservists in which he expressed his concerns that should the 'new' members arrive into the system with a different tab from the one (skull) worn by the rest, then a potential downgrading would be created, thereby possibly damaging the corps spirit of the service. He further stated that seeing as the KZ system already has guards that do not match the criteria of the SS already wearing the 'skull' tab, he thinks that the Army transferees should be issued the 'skull' as well. (SS-WVHA 5.6.44 AT V/4 AZ: 23b12 Ma/Fs). We also already know that the guy bottom right wearing a skull was one of these reservists.

my bet would be that this is indeed, Ebensee. After spending time there recently, the trees and the mountainous background in the photo bring back a memory of just such a place . . .

Very interesting. I was leaning towards Mittelbau-Dora or Nordhausen or maybe even Buchenwald?

[max history]

Graham,
My point is that no point can be taken as red on an assumption, such as this. There must be supporting evidence. You are probably correct, but this photo cannot be definitively described as a KL photo without further supporting evidence. An ID of one of the men would probably solve it, if his career in KL could be established. It's just the researcher in me!
Your observation regarding older men in the KL administration is well made, but many Waffen-SS units used older men as admin staff also. Totenkopf is one in point.
Regards,
Max.

[max history]

Here is an older Waffen-SS TK admin. man, not connected to KL service.
(One of my favourite SS images.)
Max.