Different uniform, different ribbon bar!?

[Ian Jewison]

Here are four different photos of a WWI veteran...interestingly he wears 3 different medal bars on his uniforms! Admitably the one as a Major should be different as he was awarded two more medals, however the one as a Hauptmann he chooses a smaller bar.....
The drawing is of him as a Hauptmann in Africa........

During WWI he was a NCO in an Artillery unit........no idea at all apart from the EK's what his WWI medals are.....

/Ian

[Daniel Krause]

Thats quite interesting!

Godd example to see that a guy had more than one ribbon bar and to see the growing up over the time.
Are good closeups of the ribbon bars available? Maybe we can ID something more.

Best regards

Daniel

[Ian Jewison]

Thanks Daniel,

Here are some larger scans....some are a bit blurry!

WWII he was awarded KVK II m/S, Afrika Erinnerungsmedaille, Italien Tapferkeits Medialle in Bronze...so whether or not they are there not sure ....possibly KVK?!

/Ian

[Rick Research]

Bad Ian-- what's his NAME?

I'm assuming from the uniform pix that none of these are a Wehrpass, which would just list them. He's obviously a reserve officer, so won't be in a Rank List BUT all hope is not lost...with a NAME.

I don't think that CAN be him in the parade Waffenrock. Maybe a brother? The awards are DIFFERENT, not what would be worn in "reduced form" there: Iron Cross 1914, Bavarian Military Merit Order 4 or Cross 2 X, Hindenburg Cross X, Hungarian WWI Commemorative Medal X, and last one I think is Bulgarian WW1 Commem Medal, often worn without Xs because the ribbon itself indicates "combatant" version.

As Oberleutnant:

1914 Iron Cross, Saxon Albert Order-Knight 2nd X (roll exists, I've got it, SHOULD be able to get his unit then and its award date. It's a KNIGHT and not a Merit Cross because the Xs are gold, not silver--compare to silver Bavarian X and Hindenburg X either bronze or gold too), Bavarian Military Merit Order 4 or Cross 2 X (alas, so far rolls only publixhed for Captains UP for MVO4X), Hindenburg Cross X, Austrian, Hungarian WW1 Commems with Xs, ( ? Finnish 1918 Independence War Medal ? ), and Bulgarian WW1 Commem.


As Major:

same as above through the Bulgarian. Last two are obviously Sumthin Furrin, WW2... thinking about it. Italian, first impression, but NOT North Africa campaign medal-- the crocodile dentistry one.
Oddly enough, nowhere do I see so much as a GERMAN KVK2X ribbon in all that!

[Ian Jewison]

That was fast! Thanks very much Rick,

They are all of him however!!! First is a postcard as Gebirgs Offizier!?, second from his driving license, third from his Soldbuch....and no, WWI awards are not mentioned.....He did receive Spange for EK's also but after the date of these photos......

Major d.R. (1.8.1943) Otto Fuhrmann, I do know he was awarded 1914 EK II 22.7.1916 as Uffz. with 7 Bttr., Bay.Feld Art.Rgt. 21.

/Ian

[Daniel Krause]

Might it be that the "Saxon" is indeed a WW2 KVK???
I have no idea about No.7 on the bigger bars, but the last 2 could easily be the Africa medal and the italian bravery.


Best regards

Daniel

[Rick Research]

Ok then, no Saxon "SA3bX" for him. Hmmm. Proportions are not even close, let alone the colors, for a WW2 KVK2X.... which SHOULD be the ONLY other thing that COULD be in that spot, after 1939... Hmmm.

What are the dates on each photo?

I would have a REAL tough time accepting the 2nd ribbon as a KVK2 because the white edges are MUCH wider and the outside edge, which appears the same color as the wide center, is soooo narrow: no wider than the edge of the 1914 EK and Hindenburg Cross ribbons. On a KVK, the white and red stripes should be EQUAL to each other...

The proportions are all wrong on the next to last ribbon too to be the Crocodile Medal... those five stripes SHOULD be... equal to each other. The white ones here are much wider than the colored stripes. Hmm. Hmm.

Ian sets us CROOOOL puzzles....

I had a run through my Bavarian sources, but didn't turn him up. Reserve officers are almost always "invisible."

[Ian Jewison]

Thanks Rick and Daniel,

So the second is a KVK II or not? Could he be wearing his WWI ribbon bar in the photo of him as a Hauptman?
Also again, not so clued up on WWI medals....are these bravery or attendance medals?

Dates I am not sure of however, promoted to Hauptmann 27.8.1939...Major as mentioned 1.8.1943....

With there being no long service awards or Reichswehr awards he must have been called up at the out break of war....no idea of what Gebirgs unit he belonged to however!

/Ian

[Rick Research]

Arf a mo!!! He's an OBERLEUTNANT in the Gebirgsmütze photo (looks like Bugs Bunny's hapless nemesis Elmer Fudd, there! )...

I was so busy lookin' at the reeebon barzzzz... I didn't notice that in THAT photo he's got his standard KVK ribbon in his BUTTONHOLE. Compare its stripes shades and widths with the second item on the two long ribbon bars...

hmmmmmm. It's looking more like an "SA3bX" (unlisted) again to me....

[Ian Jewison]

H'mmm now I am even more confused!!!
If that is indeed a KVK then he was awarded this 20.11.1940......by which time he had been a Hauptmann for 14 months!?!?!

Or

Is he a Hauptmann in the photo.....can't explain the Gebirgs Mütze however as he appears not to have belonged to any Gebirgs units! 1941 he was in Greece, Yugoslavia and Crete....1942 Africa....1943 Germany......