SS Award Doc signatures. Please help...

[GaryMJ]

Hi Guys, Can anyone please help ID these document signatures? Any ideas?

Thanks, Red

[GaryMJ]

PAB Doc

[GaryMJ]

CCC Doc

[GaryMJ]

Promotion docs

[Barzini]

#1 is Hermann Prieß
#2 & #3 Karl Ullrich

[max history]

#4 right is Werner Dörffler-Schuband.
Max.

[Ian Jewison]

#4 left is SS Staf. Wolfgang Joerchel

/Ian

[GaryMJ]

Thank you Gentlemen, clearly a solid knowledge base here! Really appreciated, I can see the addiction in collecting documents, quite fascinating...

[max history]

#4 left is SS Staf. Wolfgang Joerchel

/Ian

Ian,
Are you sure that's Joerchel's own signature? I think it is a subordinate signing his name on his behalf. Note the "i.V." immediately before it and the initials of the actual signer after.
Max.

[Ian Jewison]

It does say i.V. before the signature but you can see the letters and it spells Joerchel.

True there do appear to be initials but he should have signed his own name!?!?!

/Ian

[max history]

It does say i.V. before the signature but you can see the letters and it spells Joerchel.

True there do appear to be initials but he should have signed his own name!?!?!

/Ian

Sorry, but you are mistaken. It is known that subordinates sometimes signed their boss' names, as in the well known case of Rommel. In the autograph world these types of copy signatures are known as "secretarial" autographs. The give away on documents such as this or letters are the initials "i.V." (in Vertretung - on behalf of) and then the "secretary" then adds their own initials after writing their boss' name. Some would write just the name in their own handwriting, but sometimes they produced very good imitations of the boss' signature. (Rommel's was almost an exact copy.)
Max.

[Ian Jewison]

If I am mistaken then I have never seen that before on official documents!

Autographs fair enough but all the documents I have with i.V. have been on behalf of/a representative of the unit.....and they have signed their own name....perhaps not their rank however which makes it hard to find out who they are.

[max history]

If I am mistaken then I have never seen that before on official documents!

The best known examples were the Rommel award documents with "secretarial" signatures. Signed on his behalf by staff officers. There were quite a few of them about a number of years ago. Also on official forms.

Autographs fair enough but all the documents I have with i.V. have been on behalf of/a representative of the unit.....and they have signed their own name....perhaps not their rank however which makes it hard to find out who they are.

That is the more common use of "i.V.", but more often than not this type of document has the name or position of the senior officer typed, stamped or printed.

Are you familiar with Joerchel's authentic signature? I'm not.
Regards,
Max.

[daggers]

Oh men! If you collect german items you should understand german and the way of german thinking at least a little. The certain doc is "titled" (issued) by SS FHA, the chief of office 11, and therefore Joerchel NATURALLY has signed HIMSELF but on behalf of chief of office 11!!!
Greetings, dolchsammler.

[max history]

Oh men! If you collect german items you should understand german and the way of german thinking at least a little. The certain doc is "titled" (issued) by SS FHA, the chief of office 11, and therefore Joerchel NATURALLY has signed HIMSELF but on behalf of chief of office 11!!!
Greetings, dolchsammler.

Oh, if only life was that simple! Unfortunately, you don't explain why the initials are in the same handwriting and the same ink as the signature and letters "i.V."
By the way, my wife is German and most of my family is German, so I think I know a little about German ways. She agrees that it is quite possible that it was a member of Joerchel's staff who has signed his name on his behalf.
I'd stick to collecting daggers.
MfG,
Max.