Monogram

[stefanob]

Hallo to everybody,
I recently purchased this ss photo from a friend mine.There is a monogram on his shoulder board and it's seems a "K"...maybe? Or what is this in your opinion?
Thanks in advance for your precious help!

Stefano

[max history]

I think this is not a "K", but is a "G" denoting "Germania." Senior NCOs wore a gothic pattern "G" in white metal. SS-Standarte "Germania" was transferred on 20 Nov 1940 (effective date 1 Dec 1940) to form the SS-Div.(mot.) "Germania."
Max.

[stefanob]

monogram

I think this is not a "K", but is a "G" denoting "Germania." Senior NCOs wore a gothic pattern "G" in white metal. SS-Standarte "Germania" was transferred on 20 Nov 1940 (effective date 1 Dec 1940) to form the SS-Div.(mot.) "Germania."
Max.

Thanks Max,
this was my first supposition too, but "G" of Germania have a triangular shape in the upper part of the monogram and not circular as this one...
Thanks again

Stefano

[HPL2008]

I appears to be a Gothic letter and I think it does indeed look like a Gothic "K".
As far as I know, this is not known as having been used by the Waffen-SS, however.
Perhaps an unoffical practice?

[max history]

I appears to be a Gothic letter and I think it does indeed look like a Gothic "K".
As far as I know, this is not known as having been used by the Waffen-SS, however.
Perhaps an unoffical practice?

The gothic letter "K" was worn by concentration camp administration staff or staff of camp commandants until July 1937 and this photo is later. It is definitely not a gothic letter "K" which can be seen on p193 of Angolia's "Cloth Insignia of the SS." In the same book, you can see the gothic letter "G" on p297 and the similarities to the one above are plainly evident. There were slight variations to the design.
Max.

[HPL2008]

The gothic letter "K" was worn by concentration camp administration staff or staff of camp commandants until July 1937 and this photo is later. It is definitely not a gothic letter "K" which can be seen on p193 of Angolia's "Cloth Insignia of the SS." In the same book, you can see the gothic letter "G" on p297 and the similarities to the one above are plainly evident. There were slight variations to the design.
Max.

I beg to differ.
The Gothic "K" denoting concentration camp Kommandantur personnel was worn on the right-hand collar patch, but not on the shoulder boards.
Furthermore, looking more like a lower-case "k", it was a of a very different design from the Gothic "K" cypher used on the shoulder boards of, say, Army Kradschützen troops.
The shoulder strap cypher worn by the Hauptscharführer in Angolia's book (a better-quality version of the same photo appears in Andrew Mollo's work on SSTV uniforms) is not a "K" at all, but rather the Gothic "L" worn by personnel of training establishments. The "K" only appears on his right collar patch.

[max history]

I beg to differ.
The Gothic "K" denoting concentration camp Kommandantur personnel was worn on the right-hand collar patch, but not on the shoulder boards.
Furthermore, looking more like a lower-case "k", it was a of a very different design from the Gothic "K" cypher used on the shoulder boards of, say, Army Kradschützen troops.
The shoulder strap cypher worn by the Hauptscharführer in Angolia's book (a better-quality version of the same photo appears in Andrew Mollo's work on SSTV uniforms) is not a "K" at all, but rather the Gothic "L" worn by personnel of training establishments. The "K" only appears on his right collar patch.

I should have made my post clearer. Of course you are right about the collar patch. I was referring only to the gothic letter "K" on the collar patch illustrated at the bottom of p193 of Angolia's book as an example only of a gothic "K" which is nothing like the gothic letter in the above photo. The illustration on p297 is definitely a gothic letter "G" and is not a letter "L". On both these quoted pages, there is no photo of either letter being worn, but I know the photo from Mollo's book to which you refer (BTW I own the original photo used by Mollo in his book.) My copy of Angolia's book is the second edition, May 1989. If I could, I would post photos to illustrate my points, but unfortunately my scanner is down.
Max.

[HPL2008]

I was referring only to the gothic letter "K" on the collar patch illustrated at the bottom of p193 of Angolia's book as an example only of a gothic "K" which is nothing like the gothic letter in the above photo. The illustration on p297 is definitely a gothic letter "G" and is not a letter "L".

I see what you mean. Still, the point here is that the Gothic "K" on the SSTV collar patches was of a completely different design than the one used for the Army-version shoulder strap cypher.

Please see post # 197 in this thread for the one I am referring to:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hutzen&page=14

I may well be wrong here and maybe I am seeing things, but I still think that this one very strongly resembles the cypher in the photograph that started this thread. The rounded top, the "notch" in the middle of the right side and the serif at the bottom are all there.

[max history]

You are not seeing things, but the question must be asked..."Why would the SS NCO be wearing a Heer letter "K" when there is no known designation in the SS?" It is more likely that he is wearing a variant letter "G" for Germania.
Max.

[stefanob]

monogram

I see what you mean. Still, the point here is that the Gothic "K" on the SSTV collar patches was of a completely different design than the one used for the Army-version shoulder strap cypher.

Please see post # 197 in this thread for the one I am referring to:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hutzen&page=14

I may well be wrong here and maybe I am seeing things, but I still think that this one very strongly resembles the cypher in the photograph that started this thread. The rounded top, the "notch" in the middle of the right side and the serif at the bottom are all there.

Hi,
thanks to HPL2008 and Max for the opinions...my first, as I said, was that it was a "G" for Germania but now I agree with you and I think it could be a "K" for Kradschuetzen Batallion (thanks for the link too)...but I think it's strange on an SS shoulder board...I've never seen (or I'm wrong?)
Stefano

[HPL2008]

Hi,
thanks to HPL2008 and Max for the opinions...my first, as I said, was that it was a "G" for Germania but now I agree with you and I think it could be a "K" for Kradschuetzen Batallion (thanks for the link too)...but I think it's strange on an SS shoulder board...I've never seen (or I'm wrong?)
Stefano

No; you're not wrong. The Gothic "K" was not among the authorized shoulder strap cyphers of the Waffen-SS.
Max is, of course, absolutely right by pointing this fact out and by questioning the possibility of this being a "K".

Still, wear of unauthorized cyphers by Waffen-SS personnel is not unheard of.

An example are the divisional/regimental numbers worn by Waffen-SS personnel from a variety of units contrary to regulations. (They were officially restricted to the Totenkopfstandarten.) This practice is confirmed by numerous period photographs.
Other confirmed examples are the continued unofficial wear of officially discontinued shoulder strap cyphers like the "P" of the SSVT's Panzerabwehr formation by WSS anti-tank units or the aesculapius rod by WSS military physicians.

Rules and regulations were not always followed; that is why I consider unofficial wear of a "K" cypher to be a possibility. That, and the fact that, no matter how hard I look at the image, I cannot match up the shape of the cypher in this photograph to the "G" or any other of the known official cyphers of the WSS.

Still, these are just my proverbial two cents and, as I said, I may very well be wrong here.

[stefanob]

No; you're not wrong. The Gothic "K" was not among the authorized shoulder strap cyphers of the Waffen-SS.
Max is, of course, absolutely right by pointing this fact out and by questioning the possibility of this being a "K".

Still, wear of unauthorized cyphers by Waffen-SS personnel is not unheard of.

An example are the divisional/regimental numbers worn by Waffen-SS personnel from a variety of units contrary to regulations. (They were officially restricted to the Totenkopfstandarten.) This practice is confirmed by numerous period photographs.
Other confirmed examples are the continued unofficial wear of officially discontinued shoulder strap cyphers like the "P" of the SSVT's Panzerabwehr formation by WSS anti-tank units or the aesculapius rod by WSS military physicians.

Rules and regulations were not always followed; that is why I consider unofficial wear of a "K" cypher to be a possibility. That, and the fact that, no matter how hard I look at the image, I cannot match up the shape of the cypher in this photograph to the "G" or any other of the known official cyphers of the WSS.

Still, these are just my proverbial two cents and, as I said, I may very well be wrong here.

Thanks,
I agree with you. Max is right for me too, but I agree with your explanation.
Thank you very much to everybody.
Best

Stefano