SS prelim German Cross doc

[spectre]

I got this preliminary award document from Manions back in 1987, before their quality control ceased to exist. It measures 14.7cm wide by 20.6cm high. I am not a document expert but have no real reason to doubt its originality. I was wondering roughly what its current value would be (sorry, not looking to sell it either). It is torn from the bottom up to the center and has some old cellophane tape on the back. Any comments would be welcome.

Alan

[Denis]

Hello
I thought that Hpstuf Olboeter was awarded the DKiG on March, 30, 1943 rather than on 03/26/1943 ?
Am I wrong ?
Besides, I find strange the name SS Aufklärungsabteinlung 9. It should be SS Panzer Aufk..... since the 9. SS Division was a panzer one.
By the way, what is the date of birth for the 9. SS Pz. Div. ?
Just some elements
Denis

[Brian R]

By the way, what is the date of birth for the 9. SS Pz. Div. ?

From www.feldgrau.com:

The 9.SS-Panzer-Division "Hohenstaufen" was formed in December, 1942, and was subsequently trained in Maille le Camp in France. Initially,
the division was named as the SS-Panzer-Division "Hohenstaufen", and was later renamed on 10.23.43 as the 9.SS-Panzer-Division
"Hohenstaufen". After being stationed throughout France the training was concluded in the spring of 1944.

[François SAEZ]

From the books the correct date is 21.03.1943 - variation in this way of dates is ok
E. Olboeter, when he was awrded the DKiG was SS-Hstuf in 5./SS-AA LSSHAH.
Did you try the black light on the doc?

François
PS: non quick conclusion here, only INFO from BOOKS (which what that means)

[Gary T]

Should the unit not be the one with which he won the award? i.e LSSAH? Hohenstaufen didn't see action for a year after this date...can anyone check that Oboleter was with 9SS on this date?

[Angel Farré]

Erich Olboeter was awarded the DKiG on March 30, 1.943 and the KC on July 27th, 1.944 as commander officer of III Bn, 26. SS Pz. Gren.Rgt in the 12.SS Pz.Div. Hitlerjugend. I couldn't find any info about him as assigned to the Hohenstaufen, the SS Pz.Aflk.Abt. 9 was created and designated as so on May 26, 1.943 and previously it was known as "Schnelle Regiment" so I doubt about citations named to this unit prior his designation. No combat was sustained by this division prior his engagement in Galizia in April 1.944 and all the offical records of officers assigned to this division not shows Olboeter as member of it from this dates till the end of the war. As being assigned to the HJ division that was being formed at the same time I suggest that he probably was in duty with the HJ helping in his formation and training. I check my books on the HJ to find something more.

Cheers

Angel

[Angel Farré]

Erich Olboeter is listed as commander of 5.(schw.) Kp, SS A.A. 1 on January 1.943 and later was in charge of SS A.A. 12, first date I found November 17th, 1.943 when he received a batch of volunteers to this unit. Transfered members from LAH to HJ started on June 1.943 and due the date of his DKiG and his previous unit I suggest that Olboeter received it for action on the battles for Charkow and this battles ended in mid Mach 1.943 and the award ceremonies for them took place at the end of this month. I think is highly improbable that an officer were retired from service just after the battle, sent to a forming unit and two months latter reasigned him again to other one and no records of personal transfered from Hohenstaufen to Hitlerjugend has been found, all related to personal from LAH or LW and KM.

Cheers

Angel

[spectre]

I looked at it under a black light and there was no glow from the ink or stamps, the paper looks the same as American paper of that time, if that means anything. The unit number seems to be a concern. Francois, was it 1./SS-AA LSSAH or 5./SS-AA Wiking?

I don't have any detailed orders of battle of all the SS divisions in the Manstein offensive at Kharkov down to the battalion level. I also wouldn't think there would be big problem with typos on high level award documents but then theres already one on here.

Thanks,
Alan

[François SAEZ]

Alan,
In the book "Das Deutsche Kreuz 1941 - 1945" by K. Patwall & V. Scherzer, Erich Olboeter, when he was awarded the DKiG was SS-Hstuf in 5./SS-AA LSSHAH - Maybe somebody else could confirm.
François

[Gary T]

Hi Francois,

I also checked the Patwall book and the KC award date. and as Angel says most LAH transfers were to HJ not Hohenstaufen. I This document creates major doubts, in my mind ay least.

[Akira Takiguchi]

Probably by now many would like to ask - "<i>before their quality control ceased to exist.</i>" - <b>when?</b>

The name <i>Olboeter</i> was imprinted in me by <i>Kurt Meyer</i>'s classic <b>Grenadiere</b>. Thus rather a famous character, a good target for a fake. But this DKiG document does not say that he was the commander of the unit. In Mehner, HStuf. <i>Recke</i> occupies the commander's position from early 1943 on.

In <b>Grenadiere</b> <i>Meyer</i> says that he was transferred from LSSAH to Panzertruppenschule before he got assigned to Hitlerjugend division. Thus the other members may well had some rest period just like <i>Meyer</i>. Then-being-built SS Aufkl.Abt. 9 could have been a good recovering place for <i>Olboeter</i>.

So I can't be sure on either side as of now...

[Angel Farré]

It's true that the forming A.A. could be a good resting place, but on March 1.943 this unit have no existence so he must be resting where? The name of the foreground of SS Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung 9 was named "Schnelle Regiment" till his redesignation as so in May 26th, 1.943, one could expect that a clerk forgot the new name of a unit, but not that a month early he decided to put its future, and not aproved, name on an official document. It more like that someone reads his name and decided to forge a citation and adds the unit because he couldn't find the exact macht from this man on this date. Also citations tend to show the unit in which the man earned the decoration, it's not uncommon to find citations showing a unit that, in the date of the award, was not the current assignation of the soldier, so most probably it must show the 5 kp. A.A. LSSAH than other unit. I like to find when he was appointed to the HJ division because if he won the DKiG for Charkow and was tranfered from LSSAH to Panzertuppenschule to Hohenstaufen and to HJ in only a couple of months it will be a record in short commands. I'm sab discovering another collector burned by a non serious dealer, but better in this way than when he will try to sell it and someone thought he was trying to fool him.

Cheers

Angel

[Ian Jewison]

According to my information, I find the following:
6.4.41-15.7.42 als Obersturmführer u. Kp. Führer 15 (s) "LSSAH".
15.7.42-31.7.43 ?
31.7.43-30.10.43 als Hauptsturmführer u. Abt.Kdr. Aufkl.Abt. "Hitlerjugend"
30.10.43-March 44 als Hauptsturmführer later Sturmbannführer u. Abt.Kdr. SS Aufkl.Abt. 12 "Hitlerjugend"
March 44-2.9.44 als Sturmbannführer u. Btl.Kdr. III/SS Pz.Gren.Rgt. 26 "Hitlerjugend".

Infanterie Sturmabzeichen: 2.10.1940
Eisern Kreuz II Klasse: 8.11.1940
Eisern Kreuz I Klasse: 20.7.1941
Verwundeten Abzeichen in Silber: 22.3.1943
Deutsches Kreuz in Gold: 30.3.1943
Ritterkreuz: 27.7.1944

Born: 26.6.1917
Killed in action: 2.9.1944

Unfortunately no mention of SS Aufkl.Abt. 9 (formed 8.1.1943?), however it's designation from 1.3.1943 was SS Panzer Aufklärungs Abteilung "Hohenstaufen". The numbering did not come into place again until October 1943! The Kommandeur of this unit was SS Hstuf./Stubaf. Karl-Heinz Recke 1.3.43-1.3.45 (except for 1.7.44-18.9.44).

/Ian

[Akira Takiguchi]

Angel and Ian,

Are you talking from just from Tessin or also from F&uuml;rbringer (which unfortunately is not in my posession)?

I know Mehner is not always reliable, just it reads as if SS.Aufk.Abt. 9 was in effect as of Mar. 26 (under Krad. (or Schnelle). Rgt.)

And I also have to mention that cadre of Hohenstaufen was provided by LSSAH.

As we know there are a lot of conflicting information in different formation books...

P.S. <i>Meyer</i> went to Panzertruppenschule, no mention of <i>Olboeter</i>.

[Angel Farré]

I research in several books and talk with a friend who collects SS and has an incredible library, not only for published books also with hundreds of interviews with former members of the Wehrmacht and he provides me with some info that I put here. My principal doubt comes from the designation of the unit at this date, its incorrect denomination and the lack of information about Olboeter in the Hohenstaufen. Regarding the citation itself I don't like that both the stamp and the signatures appears that has the same shade, perhaps were done in the same moment, but no with the same ink and by the same man, it looks like made with a modern machine which scanned both and put it there, I'm not saying that this happen is only my feeling. Really I don't like the piece, too many obscure things for a such award. I prefer anonimous man with not this troubles than a well known soldier with all this rare details. Only my opinion, I desire I was wrong and someone could solve all our answers, but....

Cheers

Angel