here is a kc document up for a look. i welcome any and all comments. i hope that the points that may be brought up will be of some aid to all of us who collect militaria and are presented with items from time to time that we have no idea about. thanks for looking and check out the pics.
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kc document
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kc document
pic 3 the stampComment
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kc document
a similar stamp found in the fine gordon williamson book on the iron crossComment
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kc document
next picComment
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Michael-
IMO, the document is a fake.
This is the wrong style of the RK VB for April 1943, they were still using the earlier style.
The Maisel signature is fake.
The stamp is wrong.
Regards,
JohnComment
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kc document
is the maisel signature a fake version of his name, or fake based on when he signed these documents period wise? what makes the stamp bad?Comment
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Hi Michael-
The signature is fake. Maisel's signature was fairly consistent and it did not look like this, please see below for an original example.
As for the time, on Pg. 342 Gordon places Maisel in the period from Oct.44 - May.45. This is mostly accurate, as his signature was common late in the war (Schmundt died 20 July '44); however, I have seen an original RK VB from August 1943 signed by Maisel.
The stamp is a more interesting issue. IMO, this is also a fake, possibly meant to be a copy of an original with one '*' on either side, as opposed to the more commonly accepted '**' on either side. Compare: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=olboeter
This type of stamp always seems to pop up on RK VB with other annomalies, like unknown signatures, fake signatures, etc.
Regards,
JohnComment
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John is spot on, another damning feature is that Maisel was a Generalmajor at the time and was only promoted Generalleutnant in Oct.44Collecting German award documents, other paperwork and photos relating to Norway and Finland.Comment
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kc document
thanks guys for confirming my original suspicions on the piece. it was a part of a much larger group of original photos, letters and other documents all to the mentioned feldwebel. i will post those photos tonight. all original items related to the KC winner PROST. somehow at some point, some collector/dealer must have added the document to compliment the actual document. seems odd to me though when you see everything else, and there are some really nice papers in the group, how or why someone would want to add to it with a bad document. the kc winner never made it home from the war, being killed on the russian fron in july 44. i dont even think he had leave after winning the kc. that is why i thought perhaps the document was prepared at a later date to give to the widdow or for the record, hence the larger type font , but retaining the original award date. but if the signature is bad, i guess that destroys my hypothesis. look for the photos of the other items tonight once i get home from the office( i see patients till 8 tonight!)Comment
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I just wanted to follow up on this thread with some additional info...
I bought the Prost group from Michael off the eStand last week and he was kind enough to include this document at no charge. In hand, it passes the blacklight test, but the paper is wrong. The paper is much thicker than is typically found on any VB type certificate. It is really like the thicker paper usually associated with actual award documents and this is not correct for a VB.
The RK and DK VB's were not intended to be award documents proper, rather only a preliminary certificate. They were always printed on an inferior quality paper as compared to other award documents like an EK document, for example.
Otherwise, it is a really neat group. Thanks Michael!
JohnLast edited by InfanterieSammler; 12-03-2008, 09:15 PM.Comment
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Here's a high-res closeup of the stamp. Nothing like I've ever seen before.
JDComment
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Thought for sure this stamp would have brought up some comments...especially since it's identical to the on the Kumm and Olboeter RK VB's.
JDComment
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Kumm RK VB
Hi John -Originally posted by John M. Donovan View PostThought for sure this stamp would have brought up some comments...especially since it's identical to the on the Kumm and Olboeter RK VB's.
JD
Maybe Mark Yerger can post a close up of the Kumm VB stamp of the doc. he used for the W-SS commanders book.
He might also be able to comment on the source of the Kumm VB.
Gruss,
MarkusComment
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Can't lay my hands on my Kumm VB document copy at the moment. It came direct to me from Kumm in the mid 1980s.
MarkComment
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