Hitler signature on a calling card

[Robin Lumsden]

Robin could'nt you use some of your former connections with the police to have a signature checked for authenticity?

On a more serious note, is there a former colleague from fraud section that could write a small passage on what to look for in an original signature over a bogus attempt at deception? I'm sure their time would be very much appreciated by everyone, or if anyone else out there in policeland knows someone that works in this field that could do it also, it would be fantastic.

Colin.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but Inspector Rebus isn't real.

[max history]

Robin could'nt you use some of your former connections with the police to have a signature checked for authenticity?

On a more serious note, is there a former colleague from fraud section that could write a small passage on what to look for in an original signature over a bogus attempt at deception? I'm sure their time would be very much appreciated by everyone, or if anyone else out there in policeland knows someone that works in this field that could do it also, it would be fantastic.

Just for the record how much was this piece being sold for?
C

Colin.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but Inspector Rebus isn't real.

[colin davie]

So no-one in Scottish police knows how to distinguish real signatures from fake? Actually that figures.

The real funny thing is that everyone moans about the massive increase in fraud and ID theft... like shooting ducks in a barrel for the crooks when you look at who's running the asylum.
C

[max history]

So no-one in Scottish police knows how to distinguish real signatures from fake? Actually that figures.

The real funny thing is that everyone moans about the massive increase in fraud and ID theft... like shooting ducks in a barrel for the crooks when you look at who's running the asylum.
C

Colin,
Your initial question and response to Robin's answer, albeit meant with every good intention, shows a distinct naiivity in investigative procedures. You are obviously unaware of the capabilities or methods of modern day crime investigation. Police officers are not trained in recognizing whether or not a signature is fraudulent or not. Forensic scientists can advise on certain aspects such as ink, paper, etc., but plod has no skills in deciphering aspects of signatures. And crooks usually have the benefit of shooting ducks in a barrel when naive members of the public allow them to. Please do not denigrate the hard and often dangerous work of police officers because you don't understand how things work in the real world.
Max.

[colin davie]

I spent the first 20 years of my life in Niddrie my friend, I do not consider myself naive when it comes to crime or the real world, I would venture I knew more about the real world when I was 10 years old than you will ever know.
I did not expect a PC on the street to give us some hints but the guys i assumed studied writing... the guys we now know don't exist, which explains a lot to little naive me.
C

[max history]

I spent the first 20 years of my life in Niddrie my friend, I do not consider myself naive when it comes to crime or the real world, I would venture I knew more about the real world when I was 10 years old than you will ever know.I did not expect a PC on the street to give us some hints but the guys i assumed studied writing... the guys we now know don't exist, which explains a lot to little naive me.
C

Colin,
For your information I grew up in one of the roughest areas of London in the 50s and 60s. My father died when I was 8 years old and I had to take on the role of 'man of the house.' I will not bore you with my personal experiences of crime and real life as a boy and a very young man, but suffice to say that it gave me good grounding for the 30 years I spent in the London Metropolitan Police where I dealt with all manner of crime, life, death and low life, including the IRA bombing campaign, the Iranian and Libyan Embassy sieges and other terrorist activities. So please do not compare your experiences of life in a suburb of Edinburgh (a beautiful city I might add) and make incorrect assumptions when you don't know anything about the person you are preaching to.
And for your information, police officers do not study handwriting. They refer to specialist forensic analysts for professional opinions. Your initial post not only showed naiivity, but you then denigrated police officers as a whole when Robin diplomatically pointed out your naiivity with a little humour.
Max.

[max history]

Well with my limited detective powers I kinda worked out you were a policeman for myself... I mean the way you concluded that because I was surprised the police did'nt have a handwriting expert I'm somehow am a police hater with no respect for the man and woman on the beat... brilliant work!

So no-one in Scottish police knows how to distinguish real signatures from fake? Actually that figures.

The real funny thing is that everyone moans about the massive increase in fraud and ID theft... like shooting ducks in a barrel for the crooks when you look at who's running the asylum.
C

Actually, your sarcastic tone is the one constant in your replies. Terminology such as “brilliant work” and “Actually that figures” plus the phrase “…when you look at who’s running the asylum” can only be taken as digs…..And please don’t exaggerate; nobody has suggested you are a police hater.

Some more info.. when someone writes " On a more serious note" i.e. the phrase that began my second paragraph, it means that what went before it was'nt to be taken seriously.. geddit?
C

And when someone writes “On a more serious note….” It means that what follows is to be taken seriously. Your request that followed this phrase is exactly where you show your naiivity in investigative procedures.

I misjudged you the same way you misjudged me but unlike yourself I have the manners to write and apologise.
C

I have not misjudged you. Your request to Robin was naïve and it remains so. I do not see I have anything to apologise for. You are the one who has replied in sarcastic tones about the police and my “lack” of personal life experiences, and for that you have not apologised.

My best friend of 25 years in Scotland is a policeman my uncle Bill was a police man all his life and my ex father-in law was also a policeman before he died and as if that's not enough one of my best mates here in Australia is a policeman.
C

Okay, you are acquainted with a lot of policemen, as are many people. What are you trying to prove? It doesn’t change the fact that you are naïve in modern methods of police investigation and your responses were sarcastic when this was highlighted.

To return to the point of the discussion, police officers have no formal training in recognizing forged signatures. There is a popular misconception over fraud investigation which is often confused with faking an autograph in order to sell it by deception. The laws of forgery & counterfeiting are very precise and must relate to coins, currency or another “instrument”. A signature is not one of these and therefore fake autographs knowingly sold for gain will usually be dealt with under laws relating to theft by deception. Where evidence for such offences is required, a recognized independent handwriting or autograph expert would be employed by the police in addition to a forensic scientist who could examine the ink and paper used, in laboratory conditions. Obviously, these procedures are extremely specialized and costly, resulting in them being rarely utilised.
Max.

[colin davie]

Ok you're the boss.. ok?

[Scott]

Document forensics covers a whole range of areas. In the case of a paper document of this type, investigators would look at the whole card; the paper construction, color, do a UV test, acidity test, look at the printed words under high magnification for dots, banding and color mix, look at the written words for pressure points, conformity to known examples, type of ink used (including, if possible, testing the ink itself)...and a whole bunch of other tests.

I am not a forensic expert, so I don’t want to say outright that the card is fake, but it does appear so. The reason being is that the font used on this card is identical in every way, except one, to a font called "Kunstler Script No2 Bold". The only difference is that the capital H has a cross through the bar. I do not know where this H comes from. The Kunstler family of scripts was invented in 1902 and that, in turn, was based on early English Copperplate scripts. But the style on this card is almost certainly from a group of kunstler scripts invented on and after 1957, because all of the scripts characteristics (except for the capital H) become evident only after 1957. Also the cards script does not match purported original examples of script from "original" cards that I have seen in books, and websites. The 1957 and on Kunstler scripts are the types that are commonly found on word programs today. Anyone like to comment?

I would be very interested to see other examples of AH calling cards that people may have in their collections. Is anyone willing to post a few good scans? That would be very much appreciated!

[max history]

Scott,
Well spotted. It does appear to be Kuenstler Script.
However, this is what Wikipedia says....
Kuenstler Script is a formal script typeface. The primary weight was designed in 1902 by the in-house studio at the D Stempel AG foundry. Originally titled Künstlerschreibschrift which translates from German to English as artistic handwriting. The face is based on late nineteenth century English copperplate scripts. Those face in turn took inspiration from earlier eighteenth century writing masters George Bickham and George Shelley both who worked in a style of writing called round hand. In 1957 Hans Bohn added to the typeface family with Kuenstler Script Black, a heavy weight of the face.
I do not usually place much faith in Wikipedia, but could this mean that the script originates from 1902 and not 1957? Maybe one of our print experts can assist?
Max.

[Rammstein]

Here is a A.H. calling card with his signature. I can't see any problems with it and believe it's his original signature but before I buy it I just want to be certain about it and get some opinions. Thanks.

Regards,
AB.

its a Copy

[Robin Lumsden]

Please do not denigrate the hard and often dangerous work of police officers because you don't understand how things work.

Well said.

[reichenberg]

There's one for sale on The Treasure Bunker website right now, but you would need to request better pics.


http://www.treasurebunker.com/acatalog/info_45.html

[colin davie]

Document forensics covers a whole range of areas. In the case of a paper document of this type, investigators would look at the whole card; the paper construction, color, do a UV test, acidity test, look at the printed words under high magnification for dots, banding and color mix, look at the written words for pressure points, conformity to known examples, type of ink used (including, if possible, testing the ink itself)...and a whole bunch of other tests.

Scott, thanks for your decent response to my request for information relating to spotting a fake, much appreciated.
C

[colin davie]

Well said.

Well the comment about Niddrie and Edinburgh being "nice little places" probably would'nt go down to well at Fetties, would appear I appreciate Lothian and Borders police force more than some, well I suppose at least one of you has an excuse.

BTW sarcasm in Scotland is not offensive it's a National Treasure, other examples being Whiskey, Archie Gemmil, the Broons and deep fried pizza.
C