Waffen-SS: Knights cross winner photos (Hoffmann cards)

[Akira Takiguchi]

Joe, but then again, why do you think your ESSLINGER card is a fake? No features you mentioned directly link to post-45 manufacture.

If there is anything that can visibly tells the timeframe, that is the font used (name and rank). Fonts vary subtlely even with the same font name, but certainly they are distinguishable from professional eyes, like badge guys are so great in finding feeble die crack.

I hope there's someone in this forum who is versed in typographical history. I have rather strong typographic interest, but not good enough to give you a definite answer. Still, to my eyes, the font of "fake" cards are all the same (including ESSLINGER and LILIENSTERN) and it gives me rather "new" feeling.

My current opinion anyway.

[frankandfrank]

hoffmann

hello joe,
if i compare the original hoffmann cards with the number and without the numbers you can see the different!I have the originals with the numbers and i have the the fantasy cards without the numbers!
Also the orginal cards with the numbers are a little bit bigger than the cards without the numbers! Original cards have only numbers! You can ask a very good dealer or the the author of waffen-ss books.
Mark C. Yerger

he knows this also.
regards
ralf

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Akira,


The paper on the ESSLINGER card fluoresces, not a good sign.

-The printing on the reverse is unclear and not a good strike, as well as the characters are bleeding, also wrong color they should have a higher gray scale.

- The ink and printing process used to produce the ESSLINGER card is post war.

Oops have to go to work.

Will being looking forward to hearing Ralf’s response on the source of his information as well as a more in depth answer.

Also IMPORTANT, do not buy a Waffen SS PC just because it is numbered and PASS on one because it is not.

Sorry guys more to it than that.

Cordially Yours,
Joe

[InfanterieSammler]

Card

Hey,
I was really hoping that this thread wouldn't just die out...Frank, why do you feel the cards that are not numbered are fake? What are you basing this judgement on? I'm curious because I have a card that is not numbered, yet is of the same size, construction and quality as the numbered ones that I own. So what gives? Why is my card fake then? John

P.S. Joe, if you are going to be at the Oct. Lowell show, I'll bring my cards with me. I would be curious to hear you're thoughts on the Frey card.

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hi John,

I was also hoping to see this thread go further, but the only person that feels the unnumbered pieces are fakes is Ralf. WE will have to wait to hear from him as to his source of information.

Not sure that I will make the Lowell show , as of right now the answer would be yes.

Hope to see you there.

Best. Regards,
Joe

[Akira Takiguchi]

One of the things I heard from Robert Noss was that the number and the taping effect (the name and rank was printed in black on a clear tape, then it was printed together with the photo, leaving cellophanetape-like effect on cards) should be found on real cards. You know that, John, because you were the starter of the thread on the other forum.

I don't collect Hoffmann cards, thus I can give you only a few examples.
My Mooymann and Primozic come with number and taping effect.

There are three numbered Scherer cards. Two are numbered R31 and the other numbered 1563. 1563 shows distinct tape effect. One shows less effect, the last shows vitually none.

Ralf says all real cards must have a number. Fakes may also have numbers. In http://www.s-line.de/homepages/ronal.../forgery_2.htm the author says he has one fake that has a number.

What about taping effect? If I follow the rule earlier, one of my R31 could be a fake. And Esslinger on this thread could well be, too. But I have to add one thing: my Scherer R31 shows a different, period font (due to the font, my feeling is that Esslinger etc. are more likely a fake).

On the web, that "original cards must have a number" seems to be the consensus... To me, somebody must submit an evidence if he insists that a number is NOT mandatory to be genuine...

[InfanterieSammler]

Akira,
Yes, I know that originals are considered to be numbered and have the "taping effect." But the question is why? If someone is going to say this, there should be a basis for that claim. They read it in a book, they talked to a former employee of Hoffman, read a period trade journal that specified the proper printing techniques for postcards (i.e. paper to be used, etc.). Thus far no one has produced any information to this effect. All that is being said is that Robert Noss says, or Frank says like these are some sort of holy pronouncements that are to be accepted as Gods truth.
Personally, I don't accept the theory that the unnumbered cards can be dismissed out of hand as fake. I'm sure there are ones that are fake. I have not inspected the unnumbered cards that the other members are discussing, I am only speaking for the Frey card that I own. I have done a side by side comparison of my Frey card with the my other cards that are "known" originals and I feel that they are of comparable printing quality, they are the exact same size and they appear to be of the same type paper. I have handled what I believed to be repro Hoffman cards at various shows and the quality is not even close. I am no expert here, but I think that any intelligent person who takes it upon himself to look, listen and learn can make a worthwhile contribution to any discussion in this hobby and this is what I have tried to do here. I think far more can be gained this way, then when someone makes a statement and backs it up with, because Mr. X says so...John

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Gentlemen,

I think that the follow statements made are right on the mark by both Akira and John,

I think this can be better simplified if the approach was based more on what we do know for sure. A working knowledge of the following;

-Understanding period printing techniques

-Paper Knowledge, simple black light tests will eliminate, many fakes right from the get go.
- Personally I would not accept a piece as an original because of a stamp and cancellation that would be fairly easy to fake.

So, the formula is the buyer must be educated on period pieces and not finite rules based on supposition. These were wartime printed pieces, we can agree on that. The ideal that there were no variations such as un-numbered examples is not expectable IMHO.

I collect LW Awards as well as many other awards, so with hat said the variations from pre-war to late war are not even close. Same rule can be applied to these PCs.

By buying known originals from trusted sources and using them as a starting point and comparing the above mentioned criteria I think the buyer can then develop a good working knowledge of discerning what is real and what is not, thus make a better informed decision based on fundamental points of reference.

This is at least what my approach has always been; as a result I have had more success than failures. I would suggest buying some known fakes if the price point is low , they will be another good source of reference.





Your Friend,
Joe

[APC]

Well said Joe, and FWIW I agree with your thesis for the most part, with the exception that Postally used cards would also be suspect.

I think that`s a lot of time & trouble to go to for selling a $15 - $25 fake PC, especially an unsigned card, and it would also be difficult to convincingly fake a period stamped and enscribed card, which would certainly show marks of going through the postal system.

It`s really surprising that there seems to almost no reference books published on Hoffmann, who did more then PC`s and on the vast number of Photocards made in the 1938-45 time frame.

I also hope this thread does not die, and someone comes up with a copy of a Hoffmann PC sales list and a postally used un-numbered Hoffmann card.

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello again,

As a point of reference there is big money to be mad faking common PCs as most entry level collectors are more willing to get started with quantity inexpensive PCs .
The stamp and cancellations are so easy to fake as well, so buyers beware on high end PCs with a stamp and cancellation as well as the less exotic.

- Full sheet of 2pf stamps $30.00 tops

- Rubber cancellation stempel mad from and original $20.00

- High quality repo PC for the beginner 5000 pieces on heavy card stock , 4 color job, single or two color even cheaper $$300.00 maybe, the more you buy the cheaper the run.

- So $15.00 x 5000. pcs = $75,000.00

- Good reason to make fake low end cards.’

- They sell quickly; the buyer is not likely to ask for a return on a $15.00 piece.

This goes on all day long. There is no substitute for homework, start off with very inexpensive PC that you can compare with an original obtained from a good well know PC seller and learn, paper, ink, margins, finishes ,stempels ect. I have seen PCs with 1938 issues with a 1937 cancellation. That is an obvious example but they are out their and people buy them. A piece of history for $15.00 is the thought process.

Just, my thoughts.
JD

[Akira Takiguchi]

Ah Joe... Why do you ignore my point? I AM SAYING THAT THE FONT USED FOR RANK AND NAME IS MODERN. PRECISELY, IT IS HELVETICA. HELVETICA WAS DESIGNED IN 1957. END OF STORY.

But, as I don't consider myself an authority in font, though I am stronger than many of you, there COULD have been a similar font in pre-45.

To counter my point is easy: find a pre-45 Hoffmann book that use exactly the same font!

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Akira,

I must apologize in reference to not addressing the font type; I was concentrating on other aspects of the thread. I cannot say either way about the font for sure ( pre- existing before 1957) , BUT, that is an easy one for me as my father is a master typographer that migrated to printing as typographers were more or less eliminated with modern technology to a much lesser degree, at least in the U.S.
Good question that I will follow up.

I also have great respect for Mr. Yeager and am aware of his background.

Best Regards,
JD

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Akira,

I have just had a meeting with my father in reference to the font type as well as the numbering process. You are 100% correct in that, HELVETICA was not available pre-1945 and that the cards I displayed are clearly HELVETICA.

Their was a few similar fonts used that were available pre-1945 that looked like HELVETICA; FUTURA, SPARTAN.

The difference from HELVETICA to the originals posted can be seen in the letters “R” lower case “a” “g”. These were the easiest to point out. MY father could not nail down exactly what font was being used on the originals, as the pictures posted were not good enough. However if someone can post a close of the name than we can nail the font down, thus give a good point of reference.

The logic from a printers stand point was the font was NEVER changed. It does not make any sense to do so; so the font used on the originals was used during the entire run of the card. Remember offset printing was not available and these images were etched onto to copper plates or zinc; using an acid bath to create the different gray scales or contrasts.

Now the numbering; the numbering was done using one of two different methods, a numbering machine, or it was photo etched onto the reverse of the card.

Two thoughts here;

1. The numbers were used as a counter per say of what number of the same card was produced; meaning; let say that if we use John Donavan’s example of SEPP DEITRICH, the card is numbered 3618, with a smaller number to the top left corner, (I think it is 187, can’t really make it out.). Then if the thought is that (From a printers perspective) The card run is 187 and John’s example is number 3618 of that run and the next same exact card being printed would be number 187 run number and the card would be numbered 3619 as the next one in succession.

2. The other theory would be that the Number was photo etched on the card and all the SEPP DEITRICH examples posted that look exactly like the one John posted would bear the same number 187 as we as 3618.

3.

That being the case I would have to say that cards not bearing numbers and using a modern font would be easy to spot. If the first theory is correct than un-numbered cards with the proper font did exist. These are just pieces to a puzzle that I hope have cleared some of the air.
@ Akira, my computer does not have those fonts styles can you post some examples of the discussed fonts as this will really help put the lid on the question of font type.
If anyone has the exact same SEPP DEITRICH card that John posted and can provide a pics of the reverse as well as the obverse. I think that we can pretty much tie up the loose ends on this topic and draw to a conclusion.

Maybe, Ralf is correct all along, the problem was that he did not explain it in length.

Best Regards,
JD

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Gentleman,

Here is an example provided by my father from a Pre - 1945 typographers reference book of type styles. This font is called Spartan medium, which looks to be the same font used on the SS PCs. There is also another font called Futura that looks about identical.

Either way, I hope that this will help as guide for determining original from fake. This is font used on original pieces. If you concentrate on the lower case “a” and “g” as well as the uppercase “M” and “W” and the "R" you can see the font is identical to the font used on the original SS PCs.

Best, Regards,
JD

[Akira Takiguchi]

Thank you for your patience, Joe. My rather vague messages to approach the conclusion might have been irritating to you, sorry about it; but I needed someone other than me to investigate the matter. Only supplementary examinations from unrelated party will give readers confidence in the result. Apparently, those fake cards were produced in 60s or later. It would be an interesting research project to check all the auction and sales catalogs to find their first appearances into the market. If you know the font well, you can distinguish it with a small picture.

Joe, I have to thank you for being a son of a typographer.

Nobody has successfully proved that unnumbered copies are 100% fake, because simply it is not possible. This is a hypothesis that cannot be proved (while it is possible to prove otherwise by showing an original card without a number with 100% tracking record), but I think for the time being it can widely be accepted with very little reservation.

Regarding fonts, the following pages might be interesting for readers.

Helvetica, designed in 1957, has a notable curved "tail" of "R", and has a prominent tail of "a".

http://www.adobe.com/type/browser/F/...10005000.jhtml

Futura, designed in 1927, is easily identified by sharp-topped uppercase A and circular look of C, G, O, Q.

http://www.adobe.com/type/browser/F/...10004000.jhtml

Akzidenz-Grotesk, designed in 1896, is much closer to Helvetica. In fact, Helvetica was designed to beat Akzidenz-Grotesk. As you can see, "R" and "a" are different.

http://www.bertholdtypes.com/bq_library/90030.html

Grotesque is a 19-century font and shares the tail of "a" but "R" has a straight tail.

http://www.adobe.com/type/browser/F/...ml?id=type-020

Franklin Gothic, designed in 1902, is also close. Again, "R" and "a" are different.

http://www.adobe.com/type/browser/F/...10004000.jhtml