Helmut Wick RK Citation

[Jeremy]

Didn't realise you required more than the obvious comment that it is a fake, Dennis. I don't own a Wick. But I do own the ability to recognise fake factory material.

Nature of the ink, repetitive nature of the signature, difference to a few Wick sigs I consider authentic... Do some research. Seriously, it is a modern fake and a forensic analysis of the ink I feel very confident would confirm my view, though the cost entailed is not worth it until a cheap way of doing it is available. So we are left with our own knowledge and those of others. Up to you if take advice offered here... As I said, happy to help any time.

J

[stig1958]

Wick signature

I thank you for your reply J, I don't understand why everyone gets so upset when I make a comment on any item, it is merely questioning peoples perceptions on WW2 memorabilia. I welcome constructive criticism like your reply, I am not in the least offended by any one on the forums comments,, its a forum for debate which I like. You say "difference to a few Wick sigs I consider authentic" that is your considered opinion, which I welcome, but it doesn't mean I agree with your opinion. I have collected wartime signatures for many years and I have reached my own considered opinion, but am always open to question. The forum members must not take offence by anything I post, people seemed to be a bit fixated by this "fake factory" has anybody on the forum worked at this "fake factory" or do they know anyone who does, or is it just internet gossip taken as gospel, like the Moon landing or the JFK assassination.

Thanks again J

Dennis

[Jeremy]

So if you have collected for years, I am not sure why you find the notion of the large scale supply of fakes into autograph collecting unusual. There are plenty of threads illustrating this issue. I have indicated them to you previously.

I don't mind if you disagree with my opinion. You asked for it, and I offered it. Up to you if you believe fake factory material is authentic. Many don't as evidenced by the low price realised for the many factory items in the recent Stade Auction. Here is a fake Wick for 7 Euros. I have a better scan which I will show later.

https://www.philasearch.com/en/i_907...653&row_nr=125

A fake Marseille still sold for 430 euros plus commission, despite strong evidence re this type of fake material. People don't do their research. I learnt this the hard way when I started collecting too.

So tell me if you disagree that the Wick Ralf and I say is a modern fake, what support do you have for it being authentic in your opinion?
J

[Jeremy]

Here you are Dennis. Fake factory Wick for 7 Euros from Stade. Compare it to the one you posted. Paying big money now for such material when advised against it will likely lead to a future loss...

[stig1958]

Wick signature

I am surprised you even tried to compare the 7 euro fake to mine, the signature in the fake is practically solid no breaks in the flow of the ink, the ink tone is too dark, it looks like it was signed yesterday, and the clincher is, it has no Rohr logo! Mine however has the breaks in the flow of the ink, which a naturally flowing ink pen will have, you can clearly see the old fashion nib dividing line in the flow of the ink, and as I have the picture and have studied the signature with a magnifying glass and you can see the different levels of the ink fade (how you fake that is beyond me), and is not a recent signature, the card itself is of the period, the reason there are similar Wick Rohr cards out there is, he sat down and signed more than one signature at a time, this forum has a picture of Wick with a couple of pictures in front of him waiting to be signed so why not at other times a couple of Rohr cards. And the 20 other bids, who tried to also get the Wick signature seem to agree with me. If there is a likely to be a genuine Wick signature out there it’s probably mine. Those are a few of the things that point me to my conclusion, a conclusion not popular among some, but it is one that to me is no less valid than others. And as I said I welcome all criticisms as long as it is not a juvenile response like “Crap”, “it’s a fake factory”, ect. I am not in the least offended by any replies I receive it’s why I joined the forum because I was inspired by the “Marseille” debate it was brilliant. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me and I respect other forums member’s opinions, but in the end it’s just another person’s opinion, and I don’t always consider someone’s opinion as FACT.

Dennis

[Jeremy]

Ok believe what you will, Dennis. Both are a modern fake. They are the same forger's work. Hence a basic comparison illustrates this. I'll explore this further later. I am happy you don't condider opinions as fact but there is educated opinion and self-deluded opinion after already buying an item.

Your comment about the Rohr is likely irrelevant as I believe their was more than one version. You should perhaps check that before making a claim about clincher like that.

Why is the ink tone too dark? The camera and lighting affect that.

20 other bids or bidders?

How much you pay for it?

Please post the link to the auction.

[Jeremy]

Btw I see you refer to yourself as a novice in the Becker thread who panic buys on a 50/50 hunch, yet here you have said you have collected for many years.... Confused are you??

[stig1958]

Wick signature

Thanks Jeremy again for your reply, I respect your opinion, but again it’s just yours and not mine, please show me another Wick Rohr card without the logo like your fake example, it’s the first I have ever seen. I know there are different Rohr cards “Verlag Rohr” for example (you see I am learning). I have been collecting on and off for years but never seriously, its only lately I have collected WW2 signed, I could never afford them before, previously it was just a few post-war signatures, so no confusion, and 50/50 is still a good bet to me. However I do admit to being new to collecting medals so I bow to yours and other forum member’s knowledge on the subject. I have absolutely no self delusions about anything I buy, I know I am likely to make mistakes. But I absolutely disagree that anyone with any certainty can tell me if a wartime Wick signature is genuine, almost certainly any information is likely to be second hand information passed on generally by a seller who will tell the person what they want to hear (yes me to). So in my opinion mine is just as likely to be genuine as anyone else’s. I also, as you probably know, post on another popular website the same topic as the Wick, I like to get a variety of opinions. On this website someone with the same predictable uninformed reply says it’s not genuine and posted his own signed picture of Wick and claimed it to be without doubt unquestionably genuine, I politely pointed out to him on another website the same picture has been ridiculed as fake! He had made his own conclusions on his Wick signature someone else had theirs. I do research as much as I can, but you can only go on what information is available, that is why I joined yours and other websites to get a cross section of opinions, but none the less they are just opinions (but most welcome good or bad).

And the bidding website you wanted

http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI...p2047675.l2565

Dennis

[Jeremy]

Thanks Dennis.

I continue to disagree with the logic of your arguments. On this thread, stevie e claims a fake factory wick is authentic (he had many from the factory and sold up when he realised in around 2011) and the other style is fake. On the other forum, the guy von thoma doesn't like yours and likes the other style. As I said, stevie e had a lot of fake factory at that time, and was incorrect. He became aware later. Von thoma is correct in his view on the one you bought. That's the reality.

111 euros for an authentic Wick signed postcard would be highly unlikely.

Only 5 bidders above 40 euros... And 3 above 100 euros. Again unlikely if it was authentic. And many bidders were below 25 euros anyway which can be discounted. In reality, few serious bidders and the low sale price reflects the nature of the material.

[stig1958]

Wick signature

Thanks J an interesting debate the only reason there were not more bids is the seller only wanted German bidders I only got access to bid at the last hour of the auction when I contacted the seller, there would have been double the bidders if the seller had allowed overseas bids. And the von Thoma Wick is an appalling example of a WW2 signature and if that is the standard of a genuine example he or you propose to be original I think you both should re-evaluate your.. well I wont finish the sentence there is no need. Nothing you or von Thoma have provided has convinced me mine is not the most likely original Wick signature. Personally I believe Stevie should have stayed firm in his belief he had genuine articles and not been spooked by this over blown "fake factory" tale. Sure there are fakes out there but as you said yourself unless you take a deep forensic look at examples of signatures nobody but nobody knows for certain, I think it was you (if not I apologise) that said 95% certainty on any purchase in militaria is the goal, well to me that still shows an element of doubt which makes anyone with a 95% purchased item still cannot say for certain theirs is the genuine article, that's the reality in my considered opinion.

Great discussion J look forward to more in the future

Dennis

[Jeremy]

You will notice I made no comment whatsoever on what von Thoma posted re Wick.

Again I disagree with your logic. Even if it was only German bidders, 111 euros is a joke price for an authentic Wick. That price reflects few bidders and the nature of the signature.

Yep I am at least 95% sure re your Wick being fake. Better than buying at 50/50.

Stevie e was able to recognise fake factory material he had. He made the right decision. i think you are beyond help in that regard.
J

[Brian R]

the only reason there were not more bids is the seller only wanted German bidders I only got access to bid at the last hour of the auction when I contacted the seller, there would have been double the bidders if the seller had allowed overseas bids.

I don't know signatures like Jeremy does, but I would definitely look to him for expertise given what he has posted over the years (and taught us in the process).

The bidding thing is a non-issue. I NEVER avoid an auction of an item I want/need if bidding is limited to the seller's country. I have my specific tastes and goals and go for items that fit. I benefit from the generosity of friends in Germany and the UK for any items that are "sold" in Europe despite the fact that I live in New York and I, in turn, offer the same deals to friends in Europe who want "US only" items. I'm betting many other collectors enjoy the same benefits and connections as me. A low bid on a supposedly desirable item is probably due to other factors.

[stig1958]

Wick sigmature

95% sure it’s a fake, still a 5% chance its real then! I have taken onboard your criticisms and words of encouragement (I sure there was some?) It’s an extraordinary you have plenty to say about my Wick, but nothing about the other rather dubious Wick signature, not a whisper. But that’s fine you can choose to believe what you like about someone’s opinion, but it’s just that, someone else’s opinion not based on any facts. There has not been a single shred of evidence produced on this post, except a preposterous 7 euro fake that was posted from some auction site, and an unquestionable genuine Wick that has been disputed elsewhere. I’m not going to say what I wanted, to conclude this post with, because I enjoy the forums members input to my posts and I don’t intend to offend anybody.

Just don’t give an opinion and dress it up as fact, it’s just someone else’s opinion

That concludes an entertaining debate thanks

Dennis

[Jeremy]

Yep, yours is a self-convincing argument. You asked for opinions obviously as you wanted some assurance re what you bought. Now you require 'evidence' when you offer none in the first place. Why don't you do that to convince me you are beyond 50% correct?

Didn't realise I was expected to give further analysis of other signatures...

You should be aware that frankandfrank is a very knowledgeable and experienced german collector of many years. Certainly well above and beyond yourself as a novice collector. That you do not value his opinion either makes your request for input a pointless exercise.

J

[Ludwig]

Yep, yours is a self-convincing argument. You asked for opinions obviously as you wanted some assurance re what you bought. You should be aware that frankandfrank is a very knowledgeable and experienced german collector of many years. That you do not value his opinion either makes your request for input a pointless exercise.

Your lack of logical thought and approach to collecting is fine by me-it's your money after all. I leave you to enjoy your fakes.

J

Agree!