German panzer experts: Is this a Pz IV F2 or G?

[jmark]

I'm currently captioning this photo and I noticed something peculiar about this tank, which until now I thought was a plain 'ol Panzer IV Ausf. F2. I noticed that it did not have any vision ports on the side of the turret (which is a feature of the Ausf. G). Further research showed that the Ausf. G also had a rack for two spare roadwheels installed on the track guard on the left side of the hull – which my tank also has.

So what type of Panzer IV is this? Is it an Ausf. G with the old-style muzzle break or an Ausf. F2 incorporating some of the Ausf. G features? By the way, this photo was taken in Stalingrad in mid-October 1942.

Thanks in advance
Jason

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[Jonathan M]

If its an Ausf G it has no schurzen attatched, the early models ausf G's also had the KwK40 L/43 that the F2's mounted. The possibility is that this is one of the early production ausf G's

Jonathan

[superman]

I think this is 99% F2

In my opinion this is clearly an F2. It has the single baffle muzzle break which were not fitted to ausf g`s. There are no skirts attached, although some f2`s had these around kursk. the date would be around summer 1943 in russia I guess? any other info...?

best regards

[superman]

the date could also be summer of 1942. German tanks used these kind of sand-brown painting in the donez area when they went towards stalingrad ...

[Jonathan M]

Superman, did the KwK40 L/43 armed ausf g's also have the double muzzle break?

[jmark]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. So, no concensus yet on what version it is?

There are no skirts attached, although some f2`s had these around kursk. the date would be around summer 1943 in russia I guess? any other info...?

As I mentioned in my first post, this photo was taken in Stalingrad in mid-October 1942. The tank belongs to Pz.Rgt.36 of 14.Pz.Div. and from colour photos I have seen of this regiment, its Panzer IVs were painted dark grey.

If Ausf. Gs never had the single baffle muzzle break, then my question has been answered, but the fact it has some Ausf. G features still has me puzzled.

All the best,
Jason

[S Ballantyne]

Panzer IV

Hi guys,

Nice photo by the way.

Now to the F-2 or G debate, there is the belief that there is technically no such thing as an F-2, and that all these vehicles are simply early G's. This has been discussed in many recent publications, including the Panzertracts series, if I recall correctly.

As for a mix of early and late features; the lack of side vision ports and the spare wheel rack on the side do seem odd for such an early vehicle, but when assembling the vehicles, often the manufacturer used whatever parts were available to complete the vehicle.

The barrel may also have been changed to an earlier one by the local repair workshop.

To be sure, this is a grey area, but the good old early days where a "F-2 = single baffle muzzle break" have gone and left us in the lurch I'm afraid.

Cheers
Steve

[Taesung]

Steve is right, I believe. It's either F or G. The one in the pic is a very early G
with the same muzzle brake that was used on late Fs (aka F2) with KwK40 L/43.
No vision port on the side of the turret is a give-away.
Muzzle brake doesn't dictate which version the tank is. For example, many
people think that the 75mm muzzle brake with double circular baffles is for late war
AFVs such as Pz.IV late J. But this type of muzzle brake is also seen on AFVs during
late 43.

[byterock]

I would say early G as well, given the lack of vision ports and the muzzle brake and no smoke discharges (summer 42).

Chamberlain and Doyle's has a pic of the almost exact same take and it is identified as an early G.

Without the chassie # we will never know for sure.

Just for clarity sake the late Fs always had the single brake, and ports, The Gs can be found with 4 different types of brakes and some of the mid production run had the port in again.

Hs always had the double break and a new drive sprocket (2 bolts less me thinks) I find it almost impossible to tell a late G from a H the as many for the features of the H were incorporated as the last Gs came off the line.

Just for fun the Chassis # for
Sd Kfz 161 82001-82614 (Fs)
Sd Kfz 161/1 82370-82650 (F2s)
Sd Kfz 161/1 und 161/2 (Gs) 82651-84400
Sd Kfz 161/2 (Hs) 84401-91500

In case you ever happen to have the opportunity to look at the ID plate of one

[Gunbunny]

Your photo is a detail of a larger shot that appears in Concord Publishing's recent title "Stalingrad Inferno". Photo looks like it was censored to remove numbers on turret side. This would also obscure the vision ports.

[jmark]

Thanks for all the opinions guys. Seems like the concensus is an early G.

Your photo is a detail of a larger shot that appears in Concord Publishing's recent title "Stalingrad Inferno". Photo looks like it was censored to remove numbers on turret side. This would also obscure the vision ports.

The photo has not been censored. War-time censors were very heavy-handed with the retouching paint and their handiwork is immediately obvious in any photo they've "improved." I believe the crew has smeared mud or dirt over the white numbers to make them less obvious. With a loupe, the number can still be read: "833".

Jason