Schlachtflieger document grouping

[Ian Jewison]

Incidentally, the undated Beurteilung has Müller as an Unteroffizier and the one dated 11.5.1944 as a Feldwebel......no idea when he was promoted but giving more evidence that it is in fact the signature of Leutnant Norbert Schmitt RK.

Regarding Berlage, the only additional info I can find is that he was a Gruppenkommandeur with a Schlacht Geschwader at the time of the award of his DK

Regarding the Beurteilung from SG 103, what Staffel does it say he was in?

/Ian

[Andy F-P]

technical problems!

[Andy F-P]

technical problems.

[Andy F-P]

Hello Ian,
Thanks for the reply and the information. Very useful.

I thought, and hoped, that it may be the signature of Oberleutnant Norbert Schmitt but believed he served with 3./SG10 and couldn't find any evidence he served with any other Staffel. Looking at the signature it looks very much like 'Schmitt'.

He served with 5./SG103 as a flying instructor. This document is on very poor quality paper. You would have thought they would have thought about us poor collectors and researchers when producing this literature!

Someone mentioned to me that the Ehrenpokal Vorshshlag must be a fake as the last Ehrenpokal was awarded in August 1944 and unit commanders would have known this. I am sure the last one was awarded around or before this time but I am sure the procedure for the award, if not the award itself, was still being awarded until the end of the war. What do you think?
Regards,
Andy

[Andy F-P]

Could someone please answer a question I have about a unit entry on the Wehrpass unit page (#7). Can anyone read the unit Mueller served with between May and August 1943?
Regards,
Andy

[Ian Jewison]

According to my info 5/SG 103 was stationed at Metz-Frescaty from 28.10.43 until August 44.
The Staffelkapitäne were:

Hauptmann Horst Schnuchel. 28.10.43-15.3.44
Hauptmann Hermann Opitz. ? 44-16.4.45

Regarding the Ehrenpokal.....it was indeed last awarded August 1944 and replaced by the Ehrenblattspange or equivelant of the Luftwaffe.

Müller for some reason left SG 10, served with SG 103 for a short period and went back to his old unit. However I find it very late to be awarding an Ehrenpokal in April 1945 and I must admit that is what put me off buying it in the first place....plus the price!

/Ian

[Andy F-P]

Ian,
Do you think the EP document is original?
Regards,
Andy

[Ian Jewison]

Could someone please ask a question about a unit entry on the Wehrpass unit page (#7). Can anyone read the unit Mueller served with between May and August 1943?
Regards,
Andy

Frontflieger Sammelgruppe, based in Quedlinburg, it was an aircrew collecting group for people awaiting a new posting after disbandment, destruction of previous unit or simply awaiting new orders after leaving training, leave or convalescence etc.

/Ian

[Andy F-P]

Ian,
I am really grateful for all your help with this.
Best regards,
Andy

[Eric JB]

Hi Andy,

You showed that group some time ago to me.

Still a fantastic group that needs further research on this great combat pilot.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan

[Simon O.]

Interesting to see the jagdgruppe Drontheim entries.

[Anil]

Another interesting point is recommendation for Ehrenpokal der Luftwaffe. On 10 December 1944 awarding of the goblet was stopped.

Thanks for sharing.

[Meisenhelter]

Hi, was wondering about this group posted here some time ago
I find it odd that nobody mentioned that the first document for Clasp in bronze has a different name Walter Mueller compared to Waldemar Müller which is on the rest of the documents
The units seem to match on the wherpass page though, seems like a fairly big mistake in the name though.
Any thoughts welcome as i am buying this group
Also how suspect is the late Ehrenpokal award do you think, if suspect at all
Thanks,
Mike

[Simon O.]

Incorrect names are quite a common feature both in award douments and in official unit war diaries and other official paperwork. One reason for it i believe is that somewhere along the chain, the name was given to someone else by word of mouth, say over the telephone.


The recommendation for the ehrenpokal i see nothing wrong with. So late in the war it would be difficult to find out if he actually was awarded it or not.

[Meisenhelter]

Incorrect names are quite a common feature both in award douments and in official unit war diaries and other official paperwork. One reason for it i believe is that somewhere along the chain, the name was given to someone else by word of mouth, say over the telephone.


The recommendation for the ehrenpokal i see nothing wrong with. So late in the war it would be difficult to find out if he actually was awarded it or not.

Thanks Simon, your opinion is much appreciated