Otto Skorzeny Knights Cross Papers ++

[markus]

Personally, as someone else wrote, I've never see Hauptsturmführer abbreviated that way. Not after looking at, literally, tens of thousands of pages of Personalakte.

The Vorschlagsliste is one of many taken from BDC (stolen) in the 1980s, a still known US dealer being partly involved. Some European employees of the archive were arrested after the fact but the effort to regain custody of the material was half hearted at best. The film at NARS was created in the 1970s when the archive was intact. All things stolen were from big names, including Otto Kumm's full Personalakte.

Mark

I agree, but what is much worse is that true historians like you Mark might in some cases not be able to use such documents in your books simply because they have been stolen and removed from the files.

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Raymond -

The above scan is from the microfilms held at NARA.
So, the document cannot have been always together as it would be impossible.
I am not sure when the documents were returned to Berlin, but I guess these went missing either in the States or after they arrived back in Berlin. Maybe a forum member can tell me when they were returned to Germany.
In conclusion, I would suggest they were added later and I am not quite sure why they are not in the archives in Berlin?
Raymond

And, this also goes to your post #116 on the New York Times article (coincidental that the date of the article is today?).

During the period beginning a few weeks after the war ended and into the 1950s, many hundreds and probably thousands of BDC files and documents were removed from Berlin and used by U.S. Army prosecutors and intelligence wonks throughout Germany (Nürnberg, München, etc.) as they prepared their cases against various accused individuals or for intelligence interrogations and gathering. Many were also taken to London, Paris and WashDC for study as part of this process. Back and forth they went for years and years. Some were lost or "disappeared" entirely, while other files were separated for one purpose of another and the documents never returned to their original file or folder. So the provenance of these files and papers was lost as they passed through many hands.

How do I know this? Because I spent weeks and weeks at the National Archive's Suitland Federal Records center in 1986, 1987 and 1988 going through hundreds of boxes of files in RG 153 (JAG - War Crimes Branch/CROWCASS files), RG 260 (OMGUS - IMT Chief Counsel for War Crimes), RG 407 (Adjutant General's records), and several others. The story is all there. There was even an IG inspection ordered in 1950 to find out why so many files and documents were never returned to the original facility, especially the BDC. IIRC, the inspection results stated that tracing all this paper had proven impossible but there was clear evidence of theft and negligence on the part of many individuals. There are also hundreds of letters and teletypes in these records as various agencies tried to locate missing files and documents.

Now everyone knows that Skorzeny was a big, big target for Allied intelligence and the war crimes prosecutors. His papers and documents pertaining to him clearly passed through many hands after the war.

--Larry

[Gregory Koepp]

LOL, you guys are great!

LOLOLOLOL,

stolen huh? that's great please tell police that they have been found, so all the owners can go to jail, PLEASE!!

If you don't like something I guess you will find anything to make it so? Stolen now LOL..

ok how did they get his uniform and other Bund gifts and all listed in the above posts, also his engraved German Cross in gold? Stole that too? LOL

look I didn't know I couldn't say what I did about the collection open to the market, and now I have points taken away from me for saying so? I guess I will be banned again soon? (now removed by a moderator) But really who cares, it will be questioned by all the people out there no matter what, I guess who ever owns this rare grouping will have to believe in what is in the grouping/who has owned it, not the stories that could go with it.

so if the FBI knocks on my door I will be happy to post all that happens down the line, looking forward to this happening. I hope more is known about the collection. good or bad.


thanks greg koepp

[RaymondG]

Hi Greg

You are probably right, so I am sure you would not mind PMing me or a fellow moderator the contact details of your friend.

As you say, the items have all been together forever, including files from Skorzeny's personnel file, but just in case, it is worth checking with the Berlin Archives as they had plenty of files stolen in the early 1980's and I am sure they will have some record of what was stolen and what is still missing.

As you say, they are not stolen so your friend has nothing to fear and I very much doubt you will have the FBI knocking on your door.

Many thanks for your help

Raymond

[Dietrich Maerz]

LOL, you guys are great!

LOLOLOLOL,

stolen huh?

Just because of due dilligence I have contacted my friend at the Bundesarchiv in Berlin. They now house the document center. He should be able to have a look or get some information on the documents.

We just take it form there.

that's great please tell police that they have been found, so all the owners can go to jail, PLEASE!!

I think that's what needs to be done if they belong to the Bundesarchiv. I don't think the owner will go to jail but the documents will go back to Berlin if they are from the stolen batch.

Dietrich

[H BABERT]

Hello....



Herlé

[Leroy]

And where on earth did this come from???????????

[H BABERT]

Hi,
somewhere in France...French collector...
Herlé

[Gregory Koepp]

Where this has gone???

Due to where this has gone I am not posting anything else from this Collection, NOR giving out any Information who/what/where/why on anything, Not posting any of Otto's Uniforms and so on. I can't believe the posts??

But to be expected as I said from the first post....

Also Please don't e-mail or PM me about this Collection, I have already received a few hate mails and allegations, so please know I could careless what these people are saying (idiots) and will turn over any information if contacted by Proper Authorities. ie: Attorneys/Government Officials/Local Law Enforcement.

But I must ask you, some of these Doc's are well known published Documents and some well known collectors have known about this grouping??

well that's it for me, I hope you guys got what you needed and enjoyed the show, sorry it has turned into where it's at. I really didn't think it would get to this has to be stolen material because it's not in some other collection?

thanks and please don't think I stole anything I haven't and don't care who owns it as I said "not my cup of tea"................


Greg koepp

[Mark C. Yerger]

Anyone who collected militaria during the period of thefts at BDC was aware of the events. The archive, as I said, half hearted did some investigating and a few employees were charged. The original images of the documents survive on film for researchers and historians. Nobody, including myself, really cares who has the origianls or what happended to them as the film survives. ALL Vorschlagsliste were, at some point, part of the captured SS groups retained by BDC. Taken in the 50s, 60, 70s, or 80s is academic and hardly the point of argument. Its simply fact, also the archive is no longer being under US control but is now owned by Germany. If a document is owned by a collector and is also on an archive film roll, its rather obvious where it originated from isn't it ?

[Gregory Koepp]

Good I hope they find them all.

greg koepp

[Dietrich Maerz]

I really didn't think it would get to this has to be stolen material because it's not in some other collection?

Clearly you did not read thru the whole thread. But it doesn't matter.

I will close this thread now since all has been said and since nothing more will be posted by Greg.

Dietrich


Mr Koepp requested me to take the pictures of - I copied the whole thread into the cell block as is and will not erase anything. 11-21-07