Terrific image...guess what

[Gernika81]

Thanks God someone came to help me! Thanks McCulloh! I don't understand why those people must have been staring at a big hole made by an explosion (in fact, it seems to be made by an explosion, but the thing that caught their attention was something different). It's the same case as a surgeon surprised after seeing a drop of blood! It wouldn't make sense at all! For a soldier that's quite common! Something must have been inside the hole, and probably dead people (soldiers or civilians, I don't know). I bet that there were corpses into the hole, maybe executed by them, maybe death by an explosion. It's my opinion.

Ricardo the "not so polemic"

[McCulloh]

Well, the others are right too-ostensibly it shows guys standing next to dirt. However, a few things are notable here. The soldiers look like reservists to me-soft caps, older, paunchy, greatcoats not field dress: a 'walk in the woods in the late fall or early winter"....which is where many execurtions took place in the East @ 1940-41.
Secondly, care was taken not to show what in the hole-maybe just to get everyone in, but maybe also to avoid what's in the hole. Photographing these mass murders was forbidden and subject to some serious punishment.
lastly there's the writing, which looks contemporary but anyone with a fountain pen can "fake".
Still, my own experience of looking at corpses leads me to believe that this is real. I took one look at that photo and my brain instantly thought"there's dead people down there'. It's the serious, nonplussed look on the faces. I have seen it before and it brought back memories.

[bikerboyzx6r]

Gernika, its an interesting pic... i suppose just next time try to give all the info first. Im not justifying what anyone did, but i can see how people got upset with you, assuming that all germans were cold blooded murderers. If that is indeed genuine on the back, then its one hell of a photo! Hope to chat again...

[Gernika81]

Thanks bikerboy! Yes, I didn't say anything about Germans! Actually I wrote that those soldiers seem to be caucasic. I'm not such stupid or irresponsible to talk only to create controversial or morbid threads, in order to make other people feel anger (as somebody has mentioned). I've read many books about executions and mass-muerdering in the ww2, and the first impression when I first saw that pic was that something horrible was on the right side of those people.

I agree with McCulloh (thanks again for supporting my idea) on it. It wasn't allowed to take photos of muss murderings, because it was top secret and those activities were hardly punished, although some photos have survived the war. Why not to take advance of an already made hole to bury those poor people?

[McCulloh]

There's a good book entitled Ordinary Men-about a Reserve Police bttn. in poland and the Holocaust which sets the context for this photo well.
As an aside my cousin just walked in while I was looking at this. he's a 12 year cop. I showed him the pic and asked, "what's going on here?"- and he answered "crime scene" instantly.
Still, a it's a bit of an obvious question though.

[Gernika81]

The opinion of a veteran cop is very supportive of mine. He must know better than many of us the reaction of people to a scene like a muss murder grave or a simply to a murder.

Yes, that's written by Christopher R. Browning and there's another one by Goldhagen. I've also read another one entitled: The cruel hunters: the SS- Sonderkommando Dirlewanger, which is fantastic.

[jarkis88]

OK, maybe just rusians dress in german uniform

[Jonathan M]

Police Battalion 101, while we're on the topic, is another good read on the subject. Was on the reading list at univeristy and its stayed with me.

Thanks for posting the pic Ricardo
Jonathan

[luftwaffe blue]

Im IMO opinion as someone who has also served in Bosnia (infact in the first regiment that went) and other theatres of war whatever is in the crater could be nothing more then a dead cow with its legs stuck up in the air! soldiers stand about stare at anything when in the field..dead Partisans? dead animals? dead jews? all are possible none are imposible..we humans have an automatic brain facility to think the obvious..Whermacht over a muddy pit? executions..

[Tim DC]

The earth and trees definately tell: explosion scene. But does that mean there could be no bodies dumped there in the Trichter?

[Simon O.]

There's clearly something of interest for them to look at there, dead bodies is a fair guess but it's impossible to say more than that. What we can say for sure is these are regular Heer soldiers, i see no evidence of them being 'reservists' if that means Landesschützen. It looks like their wearing infantry white waffenfarbe and the age\equipment mix is quite typical of a normal infantry division. As can be seen by the spurs, greatcoats, slung rifles and small sticks they use on the horses these men are on the move. I'm betting the photo was taken during the summer\autumn of '41 but could be '42.

[Gernika81]

Thanks Jonathan!

Yes luftwaffe blue, you're right. We tend to think always of the worst thing, the most macabre. That's true, and maybe we tend to be biased by it. Anyway, there are too other facts that could lead us to think that, at least in this case. The fact is that we will never know what was happening in that very moment. That's the magic of photography.

Heer soldiers were also involved in mass murdering, am I right? I know that not like the SS, but they did something. Am I mistaken?

It's a mistery.

[W Petz]

I have told you nothing different then what someone else would have said in this discussion forum....expect criticism!! The fact is you left out some very important information as to why your have stated your opinion. I cannot see through this photo on what was written on the back. What I have stated is based on what I see on the front of the photo. Also the fact that you don't know the difference between Heer & SS is also important. My comment about researching still stands even though you have now told us what was written on the back. I'm sure many comments would have been much different (including mine) if you had brought to light what was written on the reverse. I don't think I have disrespected you...if you take it that way then you do have alot to learn. I hope you do continue on the forum and write your opinions...my intent was not to chase you away but you now know that you must provide all the information...not doing so only attracted more criticism. Good Luck in the future.

Firstable, Mr Petz, you've been quite rude to me ok? So please, respect my opinions or tend to be less irritated next time. Do you want me to feel irresponsible or stupid because I've posted something that I supposed?
Are you my father to tell me what do I've to do? So please, Mr Petz, RESPECT ME!
I didn't mean to speculate with such a controversial issue. Sorry if I've been unaccurate, but I don't think that you have to massacrate me for that. I hate people to make me feel stupid and inferior because I don't know to distinguish between herr or SS members. Is that of such importance? What is this forum for? I want to learn, and not to speculate or make false suppositions so as to be polemic.

Second, I post what appears back in the photo. That was what lead me to the conclusion I've written. It says: 50 death jewish lay. It might have been faked by someone.

Anyway, this controversy makes me think about writing more opinions in WA. Sorry for the annoyances.

Ricardo the Polemic (without wanting to)

[Simon O.]

To be honest the writing on the back is proof of nothing. It would have helped had it been in an album with a coherent story, where units, dates and places could be worked out. But all we have is what we see. That's one of the reasons i'm so against the break up of albums and photo groups that belong together.

Heer soldiers were also involved in mass murdering, am I right? I know that not like the SS, but they did something. Am I mistaken?

Yes but that means nothing in the context of this photo.

I reckon it's more likely to be something like this.

[Gernika81]

Ok W Petz, I accept your explanation. I know that I should have posted the back of the photo from the very first moment, but I made a mistake. Anyway, although I have many things to learn (and I supose that you are far more prepared than me in III reich militaria collecting), don't be so rude mate, even if the photo hadn't have a writing on the back. I'm not of those who like speculating, and less I like to speculate with some particularly hard and delicate issues.

Thanks for the explanation anyway.