My Father In-Law's Service

[Simon O.]

That is correct. My Father In-law gave me his units stick pin from all of their reunions. It states the 29th Falke Div.
Mike

Ok, so he went to the 29 Pz.Gr.Division then.

Another question. You say he was a panzergrenadier, yet the photos would suggest he was a tanker? He's clearly wearing the black tankers uniform and wears the silver panzerkampfabzeichen.
If that's the case perhaps he went to Panzer Abteilung 129 of that division?

Do you have any photos of his time in Italy?

[mgm159s]

Ok, so he went to the 29 Pz.Gr.Division then.

Another question. You say he was a panzergrenadier, yet the photos would suggest he was a tanker? He's clearly wearing the black tankers uniform and wears the silver panzerkampfabzeichen.
If that's the case perhaps he went to Panzer Abteilung 129 of that division?

Do you have any photos of his time in Italy?

If you look in one of the pictures, he is standing in Front of the Vatican I believe in Italy, or maybe three or more pictures of Italy are in these pictures. I never said he was a panzergrenadier - I said he was in the panzergrenadier as a scout on the first post. As far as combat in Italy, he still has about 4 large cigar boxes full which he will give me. Perhaps his actions in Italy are in there. PZ Grndr Divisions did have tanks attached to them just like the American Infantry Divisions do, and any other for that matter. It is not all Infantry Vehicles attached, but Tankers included. Yes he is wearing a Panzer uniform, and I haven't posted a very good picture of him in his beret Yet. I will have to post later. I don't have his Soldbuch as he is still hanging onto that, He was not with any other unit that I am aware of? I had a very good web site which I will try to look up, with the whole history of that Division, and the total break down of the whole unit, including the Panzers assigned to it. As a note: I was with the 3rd Armored Division, 2/36 Infantry, and we had tons of tankers with us. I was also with the 2nd Cavalry Regiment, which had Scouts on the M551 Sheridan Tanks. Scouts can be on a number of vehicles, to include small Reconnaissance vehicles, Light Reconnaissance vehicles , and then Heavy Platoon Reconnaissance ( i.e.Panzers). The big Red One Infantry Division has tons of tankers with them attached. I have company coming over right now. Not quite sure what your getting at with this, but "he was" with the 29th Falke Division as a tanker in Italy, and was the same (a Reconnaissance Heavy Platoon Tanker) with the 29th Motorized Infantry Division. Mike

[mgm159s]

Falke

If you look and read my first photo, and post, I indicated that My Father In-law was in the panzergrenadier as a Scout - the same as me. Apparently you may be or must be correct or your testing my knowledge. He was originally with the 29th Motorized Infantry Division, and then reconstituted in France in the early spring from the recently formed 345th Infantry Division. The 29. Panzergrenadier-Division was formed in France Mar 1943 and was sent to Italy in July 1943. I which case I would still need more info from my father In-law via my wife talking to him. I have given you the complete history all the way from Stalingrad to Italy. I will not bug him at the moment, as his wife had a stroke on his 93 Birthday and is in the hospital - not a good time to ask him. And of course his memory is fading due to age also. As the web page I pulled up indicates that attached to this division was the 129. Panzer Reconnaissance Battalion - Heavy Platoon. Here is the Unit History:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...antry_Division
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1336

Mike

[Simon O.]

I'm not trying to test anything, i'm simply looking at the photos, reading the story they tell and trying to help you out.

The Photo of Genlt. Gustav Schmidt and the caption refering to him as his general places him in the 19 Panzer Division. That is backed up by the many shots of Czech Pz.38 (t) with which the division, more specifically its panzer regiment 27, was equipped in 41\42. The shots of Pz.III ausf.H hints at 1942 when the division was phasing out the 38 (t).

The 29 Inf. Div. (mot) only got its panzer abteilung in mid 1942 and it did not include the 38 (t). When reformed it was equipped with the Stug assault gun. That's why i was asking about Italy, to see if there were shots of him with armoured vehicles there.

FYI, the heavy platoon of a panzer recon unit was equipped with armourd cars or half-tracks. Occasionally you could find light recon tanks like the Pz.II ausf.L 'Luchs' but they were few in number. They did not operate main battle tanks.

If you can read the number on his shoulder boards in the formal parade dress photo on the first page that would identify his unit at that time.

Here's part of the OOB of the 29 Pz.Gr.Div. as at Nov.44. As you can see the recon Btl. had no tanks, only wheeled vehicles, half-tracks. I've also got OOBs for autumn 43 and april 44, same story, wheeled vehicles, armoured cars and half-tracks.

[mgm159s]

Thanks then

I'm not trying to test anything, i'm simply looking at the photos, reading the story they tell and trying to help you out.

The Photo of Genlt. Gustav Schmidt and the caption refering to him as his general places him in the 19 Panzer Division. That is backed up by the many shots of Czech Pz.38 (t) with which the division, more specifically its panzer regiment 27, was equipped in 41\42. The shots of Pz.III ausf.H hints at 1942 when the division was phasing out the 38 (t).

The 29 Inf. Div. (mot) only got its panzer abteilung in mid 1942 and it did not include the 38 (t). When reformed it was equipped with the Stug assault gun. That's why i was asking about Italy, to see if there were shots of him with armoured vehicles there.

FYI, the heavy platoon of a panzer recon unit was equipped with armourd cars or half-tracks. Occasionally you could find light recon tanks like the Pz.II ausf.L 'Luchs' but they were few in number. They did not operate main battle tanks.

If you can read the number on his shoulder boards in the formal parade dress photo on the first page that would identify his unit at that time.

Here's part of the OOB of the 29 Pz.Gr.Div. as at Nov.44. As you can see the recon Btl. had no tanks, only wheeled vehicles, half-tracks. I've also got OOBs for autumn 43 and april 44, same story, wheeled vehicles, armoured cars and half-tracks.

Trying to help is fantastic, as I am not in Germany to ask him the questions you ask.
My wife was there last year. Like I said, I don't have the specifics of his full service from his Soldbuch, but do know this, he was a Panzer Commander begining to end, when he was blown out of his tank by American Naval gunfire. Then a PW captured by an American Medic. He lost all of his soldiers in that battle, he was thrown from the cupola and lived. He sustained a head wound, and a broken Jaw wired together today. Without his help on this, and not being able to look at his soldbuch I cannot give you definete answers to your questions, and wished I could. I do appreciate your trying to help. After his wife comes home from her stroke, and things settle down a little (if she makes it this time), I can give you the more specifics of his service. He was on a Panzer from the begining to the end, and I do have his unit stickpin from reunions. What I have is partial pictures and info.
Nice Diagram BTW you have there Mike

[mgm159s]

Alternative

As an alternative
If you really want to know for sure, and you speak German, you can call him directly in Germany. Perhaps it would be better for you to hear it from him, should he feel like talking about it at the moment and circumstances. . Like I said, and I have limited information on which units he was with, where all of the places he was etc. He would explain it better than I can, and my wife knows less than me, as he always talked to me when we are there in Germany.
Mike

[mgm159s]

Perhaps this will help you to help me

I have a memorial picture made by his unit after the war, where his barracks once stood. It indicates: 2.Pz - Rgt.11 Paderborn 1937-38. It has a tank on top of the memorial. But this is where I believe they did the tank training, before he re-assigned. I have very few pictures of France or Italy where they are in tanks, he has kept all of those thus far. I assume as memory to the end of his career. I think he thought I was more interested in his Russian days than the other places? I just ran across several other pictures, including a death notice from one soldier, and the one pictured on here. They were both brother's KIA in Russia, and my father In-law breaking track in Russia on his Panzer II it looks like? The picture you speak of was chewed up by my brother's cats, and just so happens that part is hard to read. I have a very nice picture of him and a dead friend, and will look on that, but since he is in the beret and black uniform, I doubt there is anything to indicate anything on that picture but I will look. You can see he was on a tank from a very early young age, up until a much older wiser Oberfeldwebel. In his balck uniform, and beret, would there be any numbers on the shoulder boards of that picture?? To me as I just looked, It looks like a 1, however what is a Recon emblem look like, and would that be on the shoulder board? It may be a 11, but very hard to tell. I will still post this picture, and maybe your keen eye can see what it is? Sure would hate to take it out of the glass frame if I am wasting my time. Mike

[mgm159s]

Just as a Note also

I'm not trying to test anything, i'm simply looking at the photos, reading the story they tell and trying to help you out.

The Photo of Genlt. Gustav Schmidt and the caption refering to him as his general places him in the 19 Panzer Division. That is backed up by the many shots of Czech Pz.38 (t) with which the division, more specifically its panzer regiment 27, was equipped in 41\42. The shots of Pz.III ausf.H hints at 1942 when the division was phasing out the 38 (t).

The 29 Inf. Div. (mot) only got its panzer abteilung in mid 1942 and it did not include the 38 (t). When reformed it was equipped with the Stug assault gun. That's why i was asking about Italy, to see if there were shots of him with armoured vehicles there.

FYI, the heavy platoon of a panzer recon unit was equipped with armourd cars or half-tracks. Occasionally you could find light recon tanks like the Pz.II ausf.L 'Luchs' but they were few in number. They did not operate main battle tanks.

If you can read the number on his shoulder boards in the formal parade dress photo on the first page that would identify his unit at that time.

Here's part of the OOB of the 29 Pz.Gr.Div. as at Nov.44. As you can see the recon Btl. had no tanks, only wheeled vehicles, half-tracks. I've also got OOBs for autumn 43 and april 44, same story, wheeled vehicles, armoured cars and half-tracks.

Just as a Note to your above comment about wheeled vehicles, and armoured cars:

During World War II the German army also fielded a number of Panzergrenadier divisions consisting of motorized infantry (or armored infantry for some of the battalions, when sufficient half-tracked armored carriers were available), with self-propelled artillery and Jagdpanzer, and in some cases a significant panzer component. These higher-level organizations almost always mixed ordinary infantry units with the Panzerwaffe. From the outset of World War II, German mechanised infantry had a disproportionately large number of successful operations. As World War II progressed, the Germans integrated tanks or assault guns with mechanized infantry as combined arms Panzergrenadier Divisions, providing mobile anti-tank defense and close-up direct fire support for the infantry. During the initial period of the war the panzer corps predecessor, the motorised corps, were grouped in into panzer groups (Panzergruppen), which were named during the campaigns in Poland, France, and Greece (none participated in Norway and Denmark in 1940), and numbered 1-4 during the first half year of the war against the Soviet Union. A panzer group normally consisted of two or three motorized corps. Panzer IIIs would continue to be used for infantry support until late in the war.

We have exchanged some interesting information here I see, and you are one of the few who mean it good, and have kept this thread alive, thanks I appreciate it, keeps things rolling. Mike

[Simon O.]

Hi Mike

The bricks are starting to fall into place now, his soldbuch of course will tell all as far as his units go but it's fun i think to try and reconstruct a career from some photos and partial information.

Panzer Regiment 11 confirms the link to panzer regiment 27 and the 19 panzer division and that does look like an 11 on his shoulder straps.

First thing to note is that Pz.Rgt.11 belonged to wehrkreis VI (a wehrkreis was a military district)
http://lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Glie...enter/PR11.htm

Now Pz.Rgt.27 was also a wehrkreis VI unit, also formed in Paderborn but later, in 1940.

http://lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Glie...enter/PR27.htm

The link? Well Pz.Rgt.27 was formed from Panzer Ersatz Abteilung 11 (panzer replacement btl. ie. a depot training unit).

It was created from personnel of Pz.Rgt.11 left behind when it shipped out and the photos you show of him being an instructor shows why. He was a recruit instructor.
http://lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Glie...AbtErs11-R.htm

So, it seems his career whent something like this.

Joined the army and went to Pz.Rgt.11, war breaks out, the regiment ships out leaving behind a cadre of personnel to form a depot training unit, panzer ersatz Btl.11. Around october 1940 that depot unit is used to create a new field unit, panzer regiment 27, part of the newly formed 19 panzer division. It's sent East in June 1941.
At some point (and i'm guessing 1943) he gets transferred to the newly forming 29 PanzerGrenadier division. Again this makes sense as the unit required some experienced officers and NCOs. Seeing as the 29 Inf.Div. was completely destroyed at Stalingrad there wouldn't have been too many of those and the 345 inf.div. had no armoured element so they had to come from somewhere.


Re. the composition of panzergrenadier divisions. We're getting our wires crossed here.
You said

and then Heavy Platoon Reconnaissance ( i.e.Panzers).

and

As the web page I pulled up indicates that attached to this division was the 129. Panzer Reconnaissance Battalion - Heavy Platoon. Here is the Unit History:

What i was trying to explain to you was that the panzer aufklärungs abteilungen 129 had no tanks. I included the TOE for panzer abteilung 129 to show you where the tanks were concentrated in the division.

A panzer abteilung will have included a recon element, perhaps this is where he served 43 onwards?

As a side note, Paderborn in my day was (not sure if it still is) a big British garrison.

regards from an ex-British soldier
Simon

[mgm159s]

Post

Thanks to Simon, I made a mistake on a certain post. Remember to NOT do as I did, and No Personal Information Posted About Veterans, they have enough on their minds as it is. Thanks for being observant on this Simon.

Regards,
Mike

[mgm159s]

Paderborn

Simon

I think once again you made a hit on the history. Paderborn was a very large Panzer garrison where my Father In-law taught Panzer training, and a very large 3rd Armored Division Battle was fought there at the end of the war. Their Division General from 3rd AD got KIA'd there I believe if I remember correctly. It was a very large British garrison until not long ago, and may still be, but I think they are all gone now? About one half of my wife's relatives lives there today in the Westfallen areas, including her uncle from Paderborn who was a PW in Iowa at Algona. He passed away in 2000. I was in Mecklenberg not so long ago, and is it a wonderful place. once again thanks for piecing this all together Simon. As a note, my wife's Mother is out of danger from her stroke, back home, and my Father In-law is much happier now too.

Mike

Hi Mike

The bricks are starting to fall into place now, his soldbuch of course will tell all as far as his units go but it's fun i think to try and reconstruct a career from some photos and partial information.

Panzer Regiment 11 confirms the link to panzer regiment 27 and the 19 panzer division and that does look like an 11 on his shoulder straps.

First thing to note is that Pz.Rgt.11 belonged to wehrkreis VI (a wehrkreis was a military district)
http://lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Glie...enter/PR11.htm

Now Pz.Rgt.27 was also a wehrkreis VI unit, also formed in Paderborn but later, in 1940.

http://lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Glie...enter/PR27.htm

The link? Well Pz.Rgt.27 was formed from Panzer Ersatz Abteilung 11 (panzer replacement btl. ie. a depot training unit).

It was created from personnel of Pz.Rgt.11 left behind when it shipped out and the photos you show of him being an instructor shows why. He was a recruit instructor.
http://lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Glie...AbtErs11-R.htm

So, it seems his career whent something like this.

Joined the army and went to Pz.Rgt.11, war breaks out, the regiment ships out leaving behind a cadre of personnel to form a depot training unit, panzer ersatz Btl.11. Around october 1940 that depot unit is used to create a new field unit, panzer regiment 27, part of the newly formed 19 panzer division. It's sent East in June 1941.
At some point (and i'm guessing 1943) he gets transferred to the newly forming 29 PanzerGrenadier division. Again this makes sense as the unit required some experienced officers and NCOs. Seeing as the 29 Inf.Div. was completely destroyed at Stalingrad there wouldn't have been too many of those and the 345 inf.div. had no armoured element so they had to come from somewhere.


Re. the composition of panzergrenadier divisions. We're getting our wires crossed here.
You said

and


What i was trying to explain to you was that the panzer aufklärungs abteilungen 129 had no tanks. I included the TOE for panzer abteilung 129 to show you where the tanks were concentrated in the division.

A panzer abteilung will have included a recon element, perhaps this is where he served 43 onwards?

As a side note, Paderborn in my day was (not sure if it still is) a big British garrison.

regards from an ex-British soldier
Simon

[Simon O.]

A long and healthy life to the both of them Mike

[mgm159s]

More Pictures

OK, as promised more pictures. First my father In-law Heinrich, all dressed up for nice photo with beret. All pictures are copy right protected, please ask if you are interseted in any form of copying any of this material, information, or pictures. Thank You, Mike

[mgm159s]

Casual meeting

Meeting of the top-guns in Paderborn 1939. States "Der Komp Chef n Seine ZugFührer". All pictures are copy right protected, please ask if you are interseted in any form of copying any of this material, information, or pictures. Thank You, Mike

[mgm159s]

Morse and Funk training

Doing a little bit Morse and Funk refresher training. States also "In Memory of the 2/Pz Rgt 11 Paderborn 1939. All pictures are copy right protected, please ask if you are interseted in any form of copying any of this material, information, or pictures. Thank You, Mike