Great-Grandfather

[Maigewitter]

Hello everybody,

here is a picture of my great-grandfather with a quite dramatic story. He was born 1899 and worked until the later stage of war at the post. Another man in his village was forced to join the SS, but anyhow he was able to avoid this by corrupting one of the responsible clerks. So my great-grandfather was drafted into the SS. He had to fight in 1943 or 1944 in Austria against bands of partizans. Always he came home he told terrible stories about the things happeningen there. Nailing tongues on the table, buses full of red cross nurses in which partizans threw handgrenades and burnt them down,.. he was always very wasted when he came home. At one point he refused to fight anymore and he got murdered by the SS. His family got the standard propaganda letter that he felt in the battle bla bla. This was in the middle of 1944. After 40 or 50 years my grandmother met the man for who my great-grandfather had to go to the frontline. He was now also very old. He talked to my grandmother and apologised that her father had to die because he was too afraid. Some days after this meeting he died. I think that he had to carry this sorrow through all his life and felt finally redeemed after this meeting.
I dont know if everything i told here is 100% correct, but thats the ways my grandmother told me the story. If there are any obviously mistakes in it please correct me. Anyhow here is the picture, it would be nice if anybody could identify the awards. I know its hard but here are a lot of experts, so maybe somebody could help me.
Thanks for your attention.



better resolution:

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/3509/019qa2.jpg

Close up of the awards:





best regards

[PZIV]

I am terribly sorry for such a dramatic and horrible story. I hope your great-grandfather and the other man are at ease now.

[peter u]

Hello Maigewitter,

Some questions:

1. How was he and that other man forced to join the ss?
- Was it because of social pressure from the comunity he lived in?
- Was it a village and/or comunite with a strong nazi sympathy?
2. What unit did your familymember belong to?
3. Was he convicted by a ss court martial for cowardice and executed by firing squad?
Or was he just murdered by his comerades (with the approval of the CO)because he was a nuisance?


Cheers,
Peter

[max history]

I don't wish to dispel your views of your great-grandfather, but this sounds a little like a distorted drama. At the end of the war, when the crimes attributed to the SS were made public, it was common for relatives of ex-SS soldiers to distance themselves from membership of a "criminal" organisation. As far as I am aware, nobody was "forced" to join the SS. Certainly men were conscripted, but it was usual to be offered a choice of service and by 1943 all branches of the Wehrmacht were dealing with heavy losses. By telling her family that father "refused to fight anymore," your great-grandmother was almost certainly trying to show her children that their father was a reluctant member of the SS. In truth, if any soldier refused to fight, he would have been court-martialled and shot. It's my belief that this story was created by your great-grandmother to soften the fact that her children's father, although a member of the SS, was reluctantly participating in the horrors of war. Yes, he was SS, but he did it against his will. It just does not ring true. More than likely, your great-grandfather was an ordinary member of the SS who was sadly killed in action.
Max.

[peter u]

Hello,

I'am with you Max.

The story sounds unbelievable, thats why I asked some extra questions, you went for the more direct approach.
Now that the words have been said, beating around the bush isn't needed anymore.
Indeed many German & Austrian families made up this type of story after the war specially if their husband or father was a member of the ss.
After Mai 1945, being part of the ss wasn't a good reference, you certainly wouldn't brag about being a member of that organisation.

If Maigewitter is really intrested in the truth about his family history he should do some research.
And if there still is a servicerecord of his greatgrandfather kept in an archive it all w'll become much clearer.
And I'am almost 100% sure that he is going to find that his greatgrandfather volunteered for the ss.
If his greatgrandfather is buried in a German wargraves cemetery he can easly find out were he was killed and where he was buried first.


Myths aren't helping nobody.

Cheers,
Peter

[Simon O.]

As a start apply for his service details from the Deutsche Dienststelle.

http://dd-wast.javabase.de/

Then you'll have a proper basis from which to research his service further.

Very difficult to make out the ribbons but the first may be an EKII.

Do you know how old he was? A load of ribbons like that often indicate WWI service.

[peter u]

Hello Simon,

According to Maigewitters information he is 19 in 1918 so WW1 service is certainly a possibilty.
He is 46 in 1945 that is quite old to be in a combat unit.
I think maigewitter is going to very suprised when he sees his greatgrandfathers service record.

Cheers,
Peter

[Maigewitter]

Sorry guys didnt want to offend anybody here with my story..

Hello Maigewitter,

Some questions:

1. How was he and that other man forced to join the ss?
- Was it because of social pressure from the comunity he lived in?
- Was it a village and/or comunite with a strong nazi sympathy?
2. What unit did your familymember belong to?
3. Was he convicted by a ss court martial for cowardice and executed by firing squad?
Or was he just murdered by his comerades (with the approval of the CO)because he was a nuisance?


Cheers,
Peter

Sorry cant answer really one of your questions. Thats just the story my grandmother (not my great-grandmother!) told me that he had to go to the "frontline". After thinking serveral times about it i have to say that it sounds a bit strange.
I dont know if our village had a strong nazi sympathy, but i dont think that it had more or less than any other village - wouldnt know why it should have a stronger.
Im not an expert on this matter but as i said he worked at the postal service (dont know the right word at the moment). Wasnt the postal service part of the SS or something like that? Could anybody post a list of SS-units stationed in Austria at this time (~June 1944)? I also cant sa how he exactly was killed, my grandmother said that he was "an die Wand gestellt", so i think that he might had been executed.

I don't wish to dispel your views of your great-grandfather, but this sounds a little like a distorted drama. At the end of the war, when the crimes attributed to the SS were made public, it was common for relatives of ex-SS soldiers to distance themselves from membership of a "criminal" organisation. As far as I am aware, nobody was "forced" to join the SS. Certainly men were conscripted, but it was usual to be offered a choice of service and by 1943 all branches of the Wehrmacht were dealing with heavy losses. By telling her family that father "refused to fight anymore," your great-grandmother was almost certainly trying to show her children that their father was a reluctant member of the SS. In truth, if any soldier refused to fight, he would have been court-martialled and shot. It's my belief that this story was created by your great-grandmother to soften the fact that her children's father, although a member of the SS, was reluctantly participating in the horrors of war. Yes, he was SS, but he did it against his will. It just does not ring true. More than likely, your great-grandfather was an ordinary member of the SS who was sadly killed in action.
Max.

First of all, i dont know what my great-grandmother told about my great-grandfather, but this story was told me by my grandmother. I wouldnt have a problem if he joined voluntary the SS, thats history - cant change it anymore. But as i said i think his duty in the SS had something to do with his former job in the postal service. I dont think that a father of several children and with such a high age (44-45) joined voluntary to fight, i even dont know if he even fought or what he really did there in Austria..

Hello,

I'am with you Max.

The story sounds unbelievable, thats why I asked some extra questions, you went for the more direct approach.
Now that the words have been said, beating around the bush isn't needed anymore.
Indeed many German & Austrian families made up this type of story after the war specially if their husband or father was a member of the ss.
After Mai 1945, being part of the ss wasn't a good reference, you certainly wouldn't brag about being a member of that organisation.

If Maigewitter is really intrested in the truth about his family history he should do some research.
And if there still is a servicerecord of his greatgrandfather kept in an archive it all w'll become much clearer.
And I'am almost 100% sure that he is going to find that his greatgrandfather volunteered for the ss.
If his greatgrandfather is buried in a German wargraves cemetery he can easly find out were he was killed and where he was buried first.


Myths aren't helping nobody.

Cheers,
Peter

I contacted the WASt but then they sent it to me back because i need the signature of the next family member and thats what i havent done yet. But i will do it soon and lets what he really was.

He is not buried in a german war cemetry or something like this. On the Volksbund page he listed as not salvaged. Also the location of death isnt exactly clear (near Heilig Kreuz, havent found yet this village or whatever it is.) Date of death is according to the Volksbund the 21.04.1944.


Sounds here in the internet like a "myth", but its something different if a guy in the internet writes the story in this forum or your grandmother under tears tells you this..

Anyhow thanks for your comments, i will try to find out more about him. If you have any further information, please post them here.



best regards

[Maigewitter]

Hello Simon,

According to Maigewitters information he is 19 in 1918 so WW1 service is certainly a possibilty.
He is 46 in 1945 that is quite old to be in a combat unit.
I think maigewitter is going to very suprised when he sees his greatgrandfathers service record.

Cheers,
Peter

In 1945 he was dead.

[Simon O.]

If he was on anti-partisan duties in Austria (border area?) then an older ex-WWI veteran is quite normal for a rear area security unit.

No point speculating until you get the details from the WASt.


Don't take the comments about the truth of the story too hardly. It's quite natural that stories get jumbled up over time. I doubt your grandmother knows much about military history or technical military aspects so it's quite natural that details become confused. I know very well it's difficult. You can't easily tell someone who lived through the period that their 'story' or perception of what happened isn't quite right.


I hope you let us know what the WASt has when you get the results. Also for his WWI service.

[Maigewitter]

Thanks for your comment. I just read about the Postschutz, which was also active against partisans in Austria. Could he had been in such a unit, or did they wear a different kind of uniform?

[Robin Lumsden]

The story sounds very believable to me.

Many postal and other civil service workers were drafted into the Waffen-SS in 1944-45. Himmler had absolute control over these things as commander of the army reserve.

The fact that he's an SS-Schuetze (private soldier) at his age, and with his (WW1) ribbons, only supports the story.

I'm not too sure about him being 'murdered by the SS', though. It's more likely he would have been killed doing his job.

[Robin Lumsden]

Thanks for your comment. I just read about the Postschutz, which was also active against partisans in Austria. Could he had been in such a unit, or did they wear a different kind of uniform?

They wore a different uniform..................like this....................

[peter u]

Hello Maigewitter,

Simon is right, their is no point in speculating without the information from his service record.
Maybe a silly question but is his wp or another period document, even a fieldpostletter kept in the family.
With a fieldpoststamp on an envelope we can easly see which unit he belonged to.
And if you have is unit, you can do a Tessin search and then you know where he was or supposed to be at the time he died.

Be extra careful with oral told stories, this isn't only for German warstories it goes for all oral told stories.
All oral told stories have to be double checked with archival information!
Not everything told by eyewitness's or veterans is always the truth.
People tend to mix up details and fill in gaps with rumours,...etc.
I also double checked the stories I heard from familymembers when I researched my greatgrandfathers warhistory.

Your greatgrandfathers history made me curious and like I said before: you sure are going to be supprised when you see his servicerecord. And I hope you w'll share the details of his service with us.

Cheers,
Peter

[Maigewitter]

I know what you mean, thats why I wrote that I dont know if this story is true or not.