Rommel Signature

[tgn]

I have this Verleihungsliste for awards of the War Merit Cross 2nd Class with Swords, that is signed by Rommel in blue pencil. I seem to remember that a bunck of these showed up years ago and the was some doubt as to their originality. Any thoughts on this one and the Rommel signature?

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[tgn]

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[tgn]

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[peter u]

hello Tgn,

If you do a little search on this forum I'am sure you going to come across good original Rommel signatures on award documents, (last week I was browsing this forum and found one, sadly forgot where I saw it).
Rommel did sign several award documents so good comparisons are around.
But I must say Rommels signature is imo an easy one to be faked.
So that makes it very difficult to tell friend from foe if the document doesn't have provenance or some other facts to determine his authenticity.

This document doesn't have a stamp; it would make me very cautious.


Cheers,
Peter

[andrewb]

Hi Tgn,
Hers is one from my collection to compare with which I got from Detlev. I do like you signature though.
Hope it helps you.
AB.

[VtwinVince]

Very nice looking Verleihungsliste. I see no red flags with this one.

[paulj]

To my knowledge, a number of these Verleihungslisten were discovered in Europe well over a decade ago sometime after the fall of the wall and came onto the US market through various reputable dealers. I recall they originally sold for $500-750 each.

I've had numerous Rommel signed photos, documents and letters over the years and I believe these award lists are absolutely original and currently have one in my collection.

[tgn]

Paul, you have an excellent knowledge of German. How do you explain the not using an umlaut for the "fuer", but umlauts are used elsewhere in the text. In other words, they certainly had a German typewriter when typing this document, but failed to use it for the work "fuer". Is this common for Germans to do?
Tom

[tgn]

Now that I look it over some more closely, the only place they used and umlaut looks like it was done by hand after the document was typed, or? Oh, and what about
peter u's concern that there is no ink stamp???
Tom

[paulj]

There are no keyed-letter umlauts typed in the document - at least I can't see any. It appears that the word "Faehren" may have an added umlaut - made either by hand or using " (as used throughout the document for ditto). In the detail photo with "fuer" there's also the word "ueberein" and all the names in the list have ue and oe typed out.

Some German names write out the oe, ue, ae - could be regional or personal (family) preference - rather than use an umlaut. But, it would be unusual for all of them to be - especially in a list like this with so many and representing names from all over Germany.

The typewriter was likely locally procured and did not have umlaut keys. If the clerk typist is not entirely used to typing ue, oe, ae instead of the using the umlaut key and he misses it, he might just mutter "Scheisse" and go back and add the umlaut by hand or by using the ditto (quotation mark) key. We all have seen hand corrected documents of award, etc.

Interestingly, the only apparent corrected umlaut is in the word "Faehren". This would make sense - typing out the ue, oe, ae in names is, as mentioned, not uncommon and is an accepted variant. However, the word "Faehren" (ferries) would rarely be written any other way. So. it would be a natural mistake to make if one were typing quickly and then correct.

Or, in this case, if the clerk is not paying attention, and since he's consistantly using " ditto marks in that column, the ditto may have been the typo and then he went back and typed in the rest of the word.

Or, more probable, he's smart and a career trained clerk. Since "Faehren u. L-Boote" with ae would take him over the page's edge, he used the " as an umlaut and didn't type a space between u. and L-Boote thereby saving 2 spaces and keeping the text on the sheet.

As for the lack of a stamp - I'm not sure I have ever seen stamped Verleihungslisten or Vorschlagslisten. Maybe some were.

There's an SS Verliehungsliste on this site now http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...rleihungsliste and, again, no stamp. It contains a couple of typographical errors as well.

These lists were internal use administrative records and produced in quantites and stored in a binder - hence the holes in all of them and the lightweight paper. There would be no reason to stamp each page - unlike a document of award or entry in a Wehrpass, etc where the use is external (ie. for an individual or otherwise subject to view by others) and a stamp is needed to officially confirm the information.

[peter u]

Hello,

Just to make it clear:
- I never claimed that the documant was fake!
- Just needed to be approached with caution that all.

The "Rommel" signature looks good imo also.
This a nice thread; forummember sharing their knowledge and providing us with a reference signature of Rommel.

Cheers,
Peter

[paulj]

No problem Peter... it's fun trying to make sense of things like this.

Caution is the rule with anything these days. However, sometimes we get overly cautious to the point of paranoia and that deflates the fun-factor of the hobby.

I lived in Germany for almost 20 years and understand that the Germans are certainly fond of stamps and signatures on almost everything...but, they are also human and prone to speak that historic phrase "I see nothing" practically on a daily basis.

The German virtue of responsibility is only seconded by the instinct to shirk it.

[tgn]

Thanks Paul, your logic makes sense (this time) . I really appreciate the reference to the Gille documnet too.

Peter, I have learned to take every precaution or concern you mention very seriously, as you were very correct on that KC document. That is why I brought up the stamp thing again. Don't worry about "calling a spade a spade" when you smell a rat. I would rather have your precautionary comments than overlook something that might lead me to make a serious mistake.

BTW, what is a Rommel signature worth these days? I notice that Mark was asking $300 for the Gille Verleihungsliste, but the asking price for the Rommel one is considerably more.

Tom

[paulj]

Thanks Paul, your logic makes sense (this time) . I really appreciate the reference to the Gille documnet too.

Thanks for the left-handed compliment... reminds of the time when Hitler heard a contemporary symphony and complimented it.

When he was told it was the Classical Symphony written by the Soviet Russian composer Sergei Prokofiev, Hitler remarked "well, even a blind hen sometimes hits a kernel of corn."

[Detlev Niemann]

Good afternoon,
some background information on these "Rommel-Verleihungslisten".
By rumor
One well know german collector (we call him K.)
who in reality is dealing, "found" the complete archiv of ALL daily award lists for IC 1st/2nd class and WMC 1st/2nd class of the Afrikakorps campaign. Hundreds, in daily order, all daily (original) signed by Rommel. A friend of his, who is an author, has asked/begged to copy these lists to make a book/roll off ALL IC and WMC awards from the Afrikakorps.
(What a great reference that would be !)
But Mr.K. who was afraid of "evidence" declined and since that day spreads these lists all over the planet.....

regards
detlev niemann