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**Rick Research** · 11-24-2001, 03:04 PM

I do not like these one little bit at all. Even the world's blurriest stamp over one does not make me like these.

I have seen and handled mucho paperwork in these last 3 decades. You will often find postwar entries scribbled in for all sorts of backdated stuff (Oberleutnants deciding to "bestow" Knight's Crosses etc on their men...) but all are hand entered and signed and stamped.

I do not care for this pasted in typewritten stuff one tiny little bit.

There was absolutely ZERO "reason" to glue-in typed entries for books which were normally handwritten and updated as needed. Award entries going BACK for YEARS should have been entered previously.

The feeble attempt at forging the Hauptmann's name and rank below his authentically scrawled original is typical of someone's crabbed, awkward efforts unfamiliar with the old handwritten script.

Absence of the correct unit rubber stamps is so blatant....

I remember many years back some cretin(s) busily ruining original paperwork by committing similar atrocities "transferring" WEhrmacht personnel into "SS" units. The period-impossible mistake on the entry above for "Battalion Commander of 3rd" (sic!!!) instead of IIIrd is another forgery indicator. (I hate to give morons better info so they can get better at their evil-doing!)

Thanks for bringing these out into the light of day--perhaps that MAY save more originals from being butchered. If not--watch for them in the USUAL dispersal venues! Aaargghh!!!

PS Have just seen scans from another of our English members of a Soldbuch with CORRECTLY pasted in "overflow," hand filled in and properly stamped with all the multiple messiness one should expect to see. If these can be resized, would make an interesting contrast with the horrors above!

[ 24 November 2001: Message edited by: Rick Lundstrom ]

**David Tiffin** · 11-25-2001, 03:22 AM

Hi Gary,
I've never seen this before. Does look kinda funny. Have you been able to pick any of the sheets lose to see if anything was written beneath them?
Rick, as for glue in sheets, it's not uncommon to find the campaigne/location page type and glued in. My wife's great Uncle's wehrpass is like that.

**Rick Research** · 11-25-2001, 12:53 PM

David--yup, the campaign lists were routinely pre-printed and pasted in, because 10,000 guys all had the same entries and it was quickest to do that way. Any particular part a specific man missed was crossed out. That was normal in WWI ID books too.

What Gary's concerned--rightly--about is the monkey business with the AWARDS listing. Rick

**Chris Boonzaier** · 11-25-2001, 02:33 PM

I would not touch the first, but the second is a bit better.
Although I would be very wary of this piece, I think other than the ****ty stamp, it is a possible book if it were a replacement book.
It seems to be done by his local WMA and could therefor be such a book.
I would classify it as very unusual, but at a long stretch of the imagination,possible.
It would also depend to a large extent what the rest of the entries were like.
Why was the book away from his unit ? was the guy wounded and this was made up to replace a lost one ?
each individuall award on the example shown seems to have been confirmed from another unit.
Its all very possible, but not very probable.
Can you show us the battle page, unit page and other choice entries ?

**Rick Research** · 11-25-2001, 02:46 PM

I'm posting these for Christopher Ailsby from an officer's Soldbuch. Notice that when there was no more room in the space on page 22, it says "continued on page 21."

These are the sort of entries to be expected--handwritten, and periodically updated, signed for, and stamped. And here is the continuation--

this page is only glued across the top and lifts up. There are not only MORE mixed entries underneath, they continue up the back of the added sheet. Notice the entries added over time, and the grim bureaucratic struggle for space between lowly paymasters and divisional commander Genmaj/Genlt Fritz Lindemann!

**Gary T** · 11-26-2001, 09:02 PM

Hi,

As you probably guessed I don't care much for any of these three pasted in entries. I have seen two other as well and all within the last six months and all from various sources, some of them very reliable dealers. I'm afraid dealers don't really scrutinise entries in the same way as they probably do with badges. All they think is that "it's this unit, has that awards and I want this amount for it..." without checking if the awards/units are genuine.

Whoever is doing this (and I reckon its one source) is obviously deliberately using typed in sheets - people are used to seeing them with battles entries, as David said, and of course handwritten entries are almost impossible to pull off convincingly.

Sadly all the books I have seen have been interesting in their own right but have, to some extent, been ruined by this tampering. In the case of the the three above the top one is a PzG officer KIA (from a dealer in UK), the second a Stalingrad KIA (from USA) and the third a 1. Pz. Div. PzG KIA with lots of service and other (genuine) award entries (Weitze, Germany). I haven't had a close look at the Weitze piece but it does say it has field typed documents for the Tank Destruction and Close Combat. However the similarity to the others makes me doubt that these two awards are genuine. And at 1500DM it's that Tank Destruction entry you are paying alot for.

As Chris says, it is not impossible for the clerk to type a sheet and paste it in but one must ask why he'd get his type writer, scissors and glue out for every book he wes updating. Unless business was slack and he was trying to appear busy to avoid a posting to the Russian Front. Of course if this did happen the sheet should have been stamped, and usually in the case of a second issue book the awards are recorded as being copied from the soldbuch etc

In all the cases I have seen none have been second issue books and all have been KIA's.
I've posted the scans from the Stalingrad KIA below. As can be seen the WMA stamp is evident on the (incomplete) battle entires and the units entries. The company stamp is evident on the KIA entry. The 'stamp' on the award entries is found nowhere else, neither is the stamped name Friedrich ****. The EK2 entry was alledgedly awarded in February 1942 (IEB 514) - it must have been the longest wait for an award as the last time he served in a combat unit was June 1940.

The award of the Inf. Assault in Bronze (itself incorrect - should be silver) on the day the man died is incorrect - apart from an incredible coincidence the date would have been when it was authorised, possibly months after he was KIA.
The same applies for the EK1 awarded the day after he died- I think here the faker is suggesting the EK1 was won by some act of heroism in which the man was killed. The reality was that even if this was the case, the date would have been the when the award was authorised. This is also the case with the Weitze piece in that the Close Combat Clasp was awarded on the day he died - an incredible coincidence again.
All in all a blatant attempt to bump up the books value. I got it in a trade and as it is a genuine Stalingrad KIA and the price was right I kept it.
As for dates on the PzGren officer KIA - these are again suspect. He was KIA in May 1942 so perhaps a date of June 1942 is not unreasonable. However the short time period would have meant this would probably have been done by the man's unit rather than the WMA. However, why would the awards all be authorised by the authorising unit on on completely different days?? Could they not make their minds up what he was entitled to?

Also note the ridiculously early Ostmedaille award - it had only been authorised on the 26th May 1942! This unit must have been using Fed-Express to contact his unit to check his entitlement and get a reply. The earliest entry I have seen for the Ostmedaille is mid-July 1942, most are August 1942 onwards.

Anyhow, sorry to ramble on I just thought wehrpass collectors should get a heads up on this recent wehrpass scam. Personally I wouldn't touch any wehrpass with pasted in award entries apart from two circumstances. Firstly, if the stamps on the sheet were clear and consistent with the rest of the book and secondly, if the book was very interesting and the price was right i.e. took into account the faked entries.

Cheers,
Gary.

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: Gary T ]

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: Gary T ]

**Chris Boonzaier** · 11-27-2001, 06:04 AM

Guys, I saw something superb yesterday.
It was (get this) a group to a Protestant chaplain, 1000% untouched, not medssed with wtc.
His Soldbuch was there.
The awards were not entered on the page, but on a piece of paper glued into the book.

I can remember having a few more 100% soldbuchs that had this.
Any comments as to the frequency in Soldbuchs as opposed to Wehrpasses ?``

**JYN** · 11-28-2001, 08:02 PM

Hello,

I have this Soldbuch for ages and I am still wondering if this entry is the Tank and Destruction Insignea :

Thank you advance

Jean-Yves NASSE

**JYN** · 11-29-2001, 08:02 PM

Hello again,

I think that "Panzerbekampf..." is written. Is it another way of writing Tank Destruction Badge in german.

JYN

**Frank Heukemes** · 11-30-2001, 08:45 AM

In full it says "Panzerbekämpfungsabzeichen".
I virtually know nothing in the soldbuch/wehrpass field, but I have a question for the buffs: why would an Oberstabsarzt (military doctor) make such an entry about this award?

Cheers, Frank

**Angel Farré** · 11-30-2001, 08:58 AM

I collect Soldbuch and Wehrpass and, unafortunately, have no idea about the meaning of this entry, but I want to clarify the signature of doctors in award pages. If the soldier was recovering in a hospital and received the notification of an award it was noted and signed by the commander of the unit to which the soldier was attached in this moment, obviously in this cases the doctor in charge of the hospital. This is not uncommon as a result of wounds usually are awarded other medals, I have a Soldbuch which has the entry of the Knight Cross signed by a doctor because the action in which this particular soldier won the coveted Knight Cross finished with a severe wound so both his Iron Cross 1st class and Knight Cross were awarded when he was recovering in a hospital.

Regarding the typed sheets with awards are something strange as usually this type of entries are hand done and only found sheets in the campaing pages as all the soldiers of a unit participated in the same battles only crossing the particular ones that a soldier was not present due wounds or leaves.

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